Marc Deluca: Q&a Regarding Cng Injection Systems - Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum
Alternative Fuels - Diesel - Additives - Lubricants Discussion of diesel, its various additives, oils, lubricants and alternative fuels IE: Bio-Diesel ect...

DuramaxForum.com is the premier Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-23-2008, 01:47 PM   eBay Motors  #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 293
Marc Deluca: Q&a Regarding Cng Injection Systems

Hey there everybody, what is going on? I figured since there have been plenty of informal questions and answers regarding this subject that we could formalize the CNG injection subject a little better. Though I will be formulating the questions with this first post, I want others to mull over in their heads what exactly you guys hope to achieve through this Q&A. Additional questions can be private messaged to me and I will happily add them to the first post.

Marc Deluca: If you want to post this Q & A on your eventual updated website please do so.

I think, while others might easily agree, the time is now for Americans to renew their interests in American made, clean burning, domestic fuels. Regardless if they are renewable fuels or not is irrelevant. What matters at this point in time is kicking the addiction of foreign based fuels. Besides, renewable energies can do very little to impact foreign oil imports at this time. While the need for them increases sadly so does the demand for foreign oil imports. Thus I feel that energy independence comes first and renewable clean fuels are in the running for a close second place.

So cheers to all and I hope Marc answers the best he can. So with that said a sincere thank you to him well in advance. Marc, anything you may not know is okay, nobody knows everything.

Q & A:
1. What are some overall advantages and disadvantages of CNG over the use of propane?

2. How exactly does a CNG injection system work compared with a Propane system? Essentially, is propane and CNG injection the same type of system with a different fuel flowing through it?

3. One well known and advertised fact about Propane is that it cools the intake charge much like nitrous oxide does. Does CNG carry this same or similar property?

4. Does CNG typically cost more or less than Propane?

5. Which fuel lasts longer and is it a noticeable difference?

6. Which is a more stable fuel to handle or run aboard your vehicle, Propane or CNG?

7. What pressure(s) is your setup fit to handle?

8. Where can you fill up a bottle of CNG? Do you need to go somewhere special or can you utilize a standard CNG filling station for a vehicle?

9. Have you used your setup on a DPF car or truck with the DPF still on the vehicle?

From USER KB3MMX

1. How big of a tank do you need to make this practical?

2. How much is CNG right now for those who have to buy it?

3. Is CNG similar to a Propane injection system that is turned on under boost?

4. Does CNG have the detrimental engine effects similar to Propane when used for more than 80Hp or so?
__________________
*Self proclaimed and appointed moderator of the Alternative Fuels - Diesel - Additives - Lubricants Section*

Last edited by Biofuelsdude; 10-29-2008 at 05:04 AM.
Biofuelsdude is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-26-2008, 06:22 AM   eBay Motors  #2 (permalink)
DuramaxForum n00b
 
marcdeluca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Coshocton, OH
Posts: 17
Q & A:
1. What are some overall advantages and disadvantages of CNG over the use of propane?

There are two advantages of CNG over propane; price and octane rating. CNG is usually half the cost of propane or less. With a higher octane, cng will be less prone to detonation when using at high levels.

The major disadvantages are lack of filling stations and inability to carry very much gas for good range.


2. How exactly does a CNG injection system work compared with a Propane system? Essentially, is propane and CNG injection the same type of system with a different fuel flowing through it?

With my system, it is basically the same operation. There are more components to the cng system, because there is a high pressure regulator required. CNG systems operate at up to 3600 psi, whereas propane rarely reaches 200 psi. Natural gas is much lower in btu content per cubic foot than propane, so the system has to be able to deliver much more gas than if operating on propane. Natural gas ranges from 750 btu/cu ft up to about 1300. Propane is 2300 btu/cu ft.

3. One well known and advertised fact about Propane is that it cools the intake charge much like nitrous oxide does. Does CNG carry this same or similar property?


Propane will only cool the intake if it is injected as a liquid. My system vaporizes the gas in a vaporizer that is heated with engine coolant before it is drawn into the engine. So on my system, there is no difference between the two fuels from this standpoint.


4. Does CNG typically cost more or less than Propane?

The price of CNG varies across the country, with prices as low as 85 in Utah to over $3.00 in other places. However, a GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent) of cng has 125,000 btu, whereas propane is only 91,500 btus. So, even if cng is the same cost as propane, you will have a lower cost per mile.

5. Which fuel lasts longer and is it a noticeable difference?
Propane will last longer because it is stored as a liquid. Therefore it is much more dense. A 10 GGE cng tank would hold almost 40 gal of lp, so you would get around 3 times the miles from the lp.

6. Which is a more stable fuel to handle or run aboard your vehicle, Propane or CNG?
It depends on how you define stable. Natural gas has a more narrow range of flammability, so in that respect it is safer than lp. It is stored at a much higher pressure than lp, so lp is safer in that respect. Both are quite safe for vehicles, but both have some risks as well.

7. What pressure(s) is your setup fit to handle?

My system is 3600 psi.

8. Where can you fill up a bottle of CNG? Do you need to go somewhere special or can you utilize a standard CNG filling station for a vehicle?
You need to fill at a CNG refueling station or by using a home refueling compressor fed from a gas line in your home.

9. Have you used your setup on a DPF car or truck with the DPF still on the vehicle?
The system works fine with DPF vehicles.



10. How big of a tank do you need to make this practical?
As big as you can afford in space or money. Since it isn't liquified, it takes up alot of space because of low energy density. I would want a minimum of 10 GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent) for a pickup. That will take a Dmax around 200 miles while getting 50 mpg on #2.


11. How much is CNG right now for those who have to buy it?
Check at cngprices.com. It varies widely.


12. Is CNG similar to a Propane injection system that is turned on under boost?
Yes. It gives the same hp increase, but is safer because of the higher octane rating. It is much harder to make natural gas preignite than lp.


13. Does CNG have the detrimental engine effects similar to Propane when used for more than 80Hp or so?
See previous question.
Sorry it has taken me so long to get this done. I have been swamped with calls and emails.

Marc
__________________
'04 CCLB D/A LLY w/supplemental CNG gas injection, Harvard bypass oil and trans filters
'05 Jeep Liberty diesel w/supplemental CNG
'95 Suburban 4BT Cummins w/supplemental CNG
'72 Impala LPG

marc@delucafuelproducts.com

Last edited by marcdeluca; 10-03-2008 at 11:00 AM.
marcdeluca is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-03-2008, 09:25 PM   eBay Motors  #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 293
Sweet thanks for all this. Do you know of any books or websites we can read about this gases and diesel engines? Let us know... and take a picture of your well and show it. Do that for another post. Make us all jealous that we don't get free gas.
__________________
*Self proclaimed and appointed moderator of the Alternative Fuels - Diesel - Additives - Lubricants Section*
Biofuelsdude is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-04-2008, 11:48 AM   eBay Motors  #4 (permalink)
DuramaxForum n00b
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 13
Thanks for all the great info Marc! I do have a couple of questions if you or anyone else care to answer.

Did you purchased a kit, or piece together a system? If you purchased a kit, what company supplied this kit and what is their company name, and contact info?

What is actually involved in installing the kit? New injectors, tank and lines, piggyback with the ecu? Do you need to be a mechanic or just mechanically inclined?

If you're on the road and run out of cng, will your rig continue to operate safely? or do you need both fuels once your setup is installed?

I've seen on the other thread it can cost aprox $1300 dollars for a kit. Do you have any idea what it costs to install a fueling station for use at your home?

The idea of 50mpg is awsome epecially since what I pay for diesel here in San Jose Ca is anywhere between $4-5 a gallon!

Thanks again for any help!
jgoot is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2008, 06:26 PM   eBay Motors  #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 293
I Tried...

HERE YOU GO....

[jgoot] Thanks for all the great info

Marc! I do have a couple of questions if you or anyone else care to answer.

I'm not Marc, but from what I gather, I can add in a few answers. I do not represent or speak for him in no way, shape, or form. The guy is getting swamped with questions, so I'll try and chime in.

Did you purchased a kit, or piece together a system? If you purchased a kit, what company supplied this kit and what is their company name, and contact info?

The kit is his (i assume) and uses a regulator designed to handle 3600 PSI. Basically its a CNG fumigation system and not a propane fumigation system. Now if the system handles both with no parts swap out, I do not know. How he gets the parts, he will have to tell you.

I've seen on the other thread it can cost aprox $1300 dollars for a kit. Do you have any idea what it costs to install a fueling station for use at your home?

They are not cheap but if you could run a lot of things on CNG, it might pay off. Generators, a car, and/or a fumigation system running on CNG might make it worth it. Not sure about Tax breaks. Here is the site for the only one I know. Phill by FuelMaker

The idea of 50mpg is awesome especially since what I pay for diesel here in San Jose Ca is anywhere between $4-5 a gallon!

Your area has a lot CNG stations at a good price. Taxis and buses fill up at the Airport. Back in August of 2006, it was $1.85 GGE. California has plenty of stations and the most, by far, in the country. Ill be back in San Jose next August for sure!

Thanks again for any help!
__________________
*Self proclaimed and appointed moderator of the Alternative Fuels - Diesel - Additives - Lubricants Section*

Last edited by Biofuelsdude; 10-05-2008 at 06:37 PM.
Biofuelsdude is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2008, 10:12 PM   eBay Motors  #6 (permalink)
DuramaxForum n00b
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 13
Thanks for posting Bio,

Just currious, you mention fumigation. I assume this is like a dry nitrous system, injected in the intake track somewhere?

I'm a little confuessed, a link that I'm pretty sure you posted on the last thread (to westport inovation) shows using direct injection. Just currious, I'm trying to learn as much as possible. Been crusing the net, but its hard to find sites that have applicable information. I look forward to learning more from everyone here.

This image is from westport innovation.Westport Innovations Inc. • Compressed Natural Gas Direct Injection



Last edited by jgoot; 10-06-2008 at 10:14 PM. Reason: html img link not working
jgoot is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2008, 05:27 AM   eBay Motors  #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 293
Hey buddy, glad you show an interest in the subject. Im ordering a new load of alternative energy books. One is on natural gas, the rest is on solar water heating, and biofuels. I will scan the natural gas book to see if I find any information regarding the subject of natural gas fumigation.

As for your questions, I have to have Marc answer those questions. I would like to thank him in advance and I thank you for your questions.

Erik
__________________
*Self proclaimed and appointed moderator of the Alternative Fuels - Diesel - Additives - Lubricants Section*

Last edited by Biofuelsdude; 01-01-2009 at 08:12 PM.
Biofuelsdude is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-27-2008, 08:44 PM   eBay Motors  #8 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
wingnut96's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: IRAQ 11 months, SE Idaho for vacations
Posts: 69
Does anyone mfg cng tanks that go under the bed? I'm leaning towards LPG because I have a dual tank set up from an older propane van project. It has two smaller 10 gal tanks welded to a mount and I was able to install it in place of the original gas tank on the van. It might fit where the spare tank is on the truck or hopefully tuck in between the rails so I can still put the spare underneath. I won't need to do this anytime soon so maybe when I get to the point of installing cng/lpg, a solution will be found so we don't loose bed space.
__________________
2005 Chevy 3500 Dually LLY D/A, Banks gear includes: 6 Gun, Speed Brake and iQ display, 4" Exhaust, CAI w/ super scoop and Technicooler. LBZ mp also waiting. Sulastic and Bilstein 5100 zincs,21211 miles. Stored.
2006 Pontiac GTO, Ripshifter, Diablo Sport Tune
wingnut96 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2008, 07:48 AM   eBay Motors  #9 (permalink)
DuramaxForum n00b
 
marcdeluca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Coshocton, OH
Posts: 17
You can put cng tanks under the bed, but you can't get much capacity. Five or six gallons tops. You can get alot more lp under there, but you don't get the savings with it. I know there are no cng stations in ID, so unless you have natural gas at home and use a compressor, it won't work for you anyway.
__________________
'04 CCLB D/A LLY w/supplemental CNG gas injection, Harvard bypass oil and trans filters
'05 Jeep Liberty diesel w/supplemental CNG
'95 Suburban 4BT Cummins w/supplemental CNG
'72 Impala LPG

marc@delucafuelproducts.com
marcdeluca is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2008, 08:07 AM   eBay Motors  #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 293
MARC: Glad your back on the board! Do me a favor and look for the "land fill gas" post. Reply there and tell us about what you think and know with regards to compressed methane gas in automobiles. Will your system run it?
__________________
*Self proclaimed and appointed moderator of the Alternative Fuels - Diesel - Additives - Lubricants Section*
Biofuelsdude is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:10 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2