$3k in repairs so far, and haven't fixed the P0087 - Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum
07.5-10 LMM Duramax Powertrain Discussion of components that are directly involved in the power production and all that is needed to get and keep the truck moving . Engine , Transmission, Etc.

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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
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$3k in repairs so far, and haven't fixed the P0087

I bought a 2009 Silverado 2500HD about 3 months ago from a private party (via a broker) to use primarily with a travel trailer. It's a small trailer (4100 lbs full) and I used to tow it with an XTerra which was not ideal.

The first time I used it to tow, I got the Change Fuel filter and it went into limp mode going up I-70 near Evergreen, CO. I wish I would have known at the time I could have been on my way with a simple ECU clear; I ended up spending $230 to get towed to Wal Mart where we stayed the night. I bought a bluetooth OBDII tool, reset the ECU and traveled another 2 hours to our destination with no issues.

I brought the truck to a diesel mechanic I found on Yelp with high reviews. I explained the story, that the fuel filter was replaced with the last oil change, but they said it was pulling vacuum and needed to be replaced (along with the 95C & 105C thermostats) for $800. I drove the truck a couple of times with no issues, but not towing. We left town last week for a trip from Denver to S. Oregon, got a late start, and stopped about 6 hours into the trip to sleep. The next day got a few hours down I-80 next to salt flats west of SLC before the issue started popping up again. I stopped to clear the code but it was coming right back. This is also a long stretch of road without any fuel stations and I didn't realize at this point that the truck was only getting about 5.6 mpg. The truck ran out of fuel, 12 miles east of Wendover.

While waiting for roadside assistance, I called ahead to see if I could get a diesel mechanic to look at it in the next town. A mobile mechanic offered to meet me in the parking lot of a Casino once I got the fuel delivered. After much longer than it should have taken, I met the mechanic where he told me about having the same issue and said it was likely the fuel pressure regulator which fixed the same problem he was having on his own Duramax. He and another tech were there for 5 hours trying to extract the old regulator before giving up. He gave me the part for $20 (it's a plug to replace the regulator), but I gave him an extra $40 for his effort. We drove another 3 hours to Winnemucca where I splurged on an actual RV hookup site. We drove 7 hrs the next day to Grants Pass, OR and didn't have the problem once.

Once we got to Grants Pass, we drove another hour for camping at Patrick Creek and finally got to relax for a couple of days and hang out with extended family. On Sunday, we packed up the trailer and the lodge across the street was willing to let me park my trailer for the planned excursion to the beach another 30 minutes away. Just as I finish parking the trailer, the bolt on the driver side pintman arm breaks. Monday morning I verify the shop I towed the truck to can fix the pitman arm, but they have no interest in looking at the P0087 issue. I drive the truck back to Grants Pass and just want it fixed, so I take it to the dealer. I was supposed to leave for home on Tuesday morning but they say the soonest it would be ready is Wednesday of Thursday afternoon.

The first call I got no issues were found. They call again saying they found the issue based on the bulletin regarding the collapsed fuel lines. I also had a transfer case and power steering hose leaks. The full cost for those repairs was $2014.69

Quote:
Case 1 - Replace chassis fuel pipe : $654

Case 4 - Remove & Replace power steering hose, booster to gea(cuts off), remove & replace power steering hose pressure, pump to booster.
15295841 - Hose
20930009 - Hose
20832565 - Hose (This looks like a fuel line hose, is this necessary for a collapsed line?)
$845.74
Left Thursday afternoon and drove about 7 hours with no problems and stayed in Reno. The next day after an hour of driving, it comes back. I had to constantly clear the ECU errors to keep driving. The conditions for this issue are almost always the same.
1. Hot & Dry - This only ever seems to happen when it's >80F outside after an hour of driving
2. Bumpy - If I hit a bump or some rough road, I'm already anticipating it throwing that code on the next hill
3. Towing up a hill >60Mph

I monitored the live data of the OBD tool to see what the fuel rail pressure was. The tool I was reading with shows in psi. When the truck was fine, dring under load the pressure was between 18-22k and more steady. When I'm experiencing issues, the high end is more like 42k and I'll see more dips in the pressure. This may be normal, I just want to add as much data as possible. When we stopped for the night about 6 hours from home, I hit a huge dip pulling into the RV park at dusk. When I went to start it in the morning, it wouldn't start. Luckily I had learned from the episode where I ran out of fuel that i should check for air. Sure enough, there was a burst of air when I loosened the screw on top of the fuel filter. On the final leg of the trip, I continued to experience the issue especially as I drove down I-25. It was slow to start in the evening last night, I imagine there is more air in the fuel line.

Here's some more things to note. I troubleshoot networks for a living so the more data I have the better, even if it might not be relevant.

1. About half of the times I fill up, it's spilling a bit of fuel out of the top
2. Previous owner added a 40gallon tank
3. The fan that kicks on when my truck is about 2600 RPM sounds like a loud kazoo.
4. Random issues with electrical components
a. Mirrors try to move past where they can move, so they keep clicking for about 20 seconds
b. The seat always moves all of the ways back
c. Rear passenger lock sometimes doesn't initiate
d. Trailer brakes don't work, all lights work fine. 2 shops said it's fine but my trailer brakes work with every other vehicle I've tried it on
5. The best fuel economy I get is about 11 mpg. Goes to 6-7mpg when the truck is acting up

I can't afford to let a mechanic look at it and sell me fixes that won't resolve this issue. I'm a technical person but I don't have tools or space to do a bunch of work on this truck & if I do need to replace that fuel pressure regulator, it's going to need a tool I don't have to get it out. I have searched forums for weeks now and reading that some people never fix this is rather depressing. Any advice on where to go next would be appreciated.
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 07:41 PM
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I would do what they call a bottle test on the fuel pressure relief valve. They can get weak over time and drain the fuel rail when under load and cause the code. Just search fuel pressure relief valve bottle test and it will show you how. Pretty simple test.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 08:26 PM
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I hate stories like this.....$900 for a couple of PS lines?!
Throwing a FPR at a low rail pressure issue...where do these 'techs' come from?

The collapsed fuel line is one of 6 different fuel system components that can fail over time and suck/draw air in thru leaks. So even though they charged 3x what it should cost for the repair, it's not a useless repair.
There was a TSB on it.

Fuel filter head may be leaking.
There's another flex line back at the tank, similar to the kink you had replaced on the front.
The FPRV could be leaking by (bottle test)
The fuel module in the tank could be leaking and sucking air at lower tank levels.
You may have an injector(s) worn, with a high return rate.
and finally,
the CP3 pump could be weak.....OR, you have several issues with the other items listed above leaking, and the poor pump can't keep up after the fuel heats up an hour into the trip.

Edit;
Add to this, user error.
The pump is gear driven. If you have a few 'slight' issues with some of the above items, using T/H and the Tap Shift to keep your RPMs up in the 1800-2200 range can also keep the fuel limp beast at bay.

If you're pulling and letting it lag down below 1800 and push on the skinny to speed up or climb, it'll throw a fuel limp on ya.
Keep those Rs up and see how it goes.

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Last edited by Hook'em_Horns!; 06-30-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 11:00 PM
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I was watching fuel temp sensor when I had my 2010. This would happen when fuel was reading over 190 degrees.

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 05:39 AM Thread Starter
 
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Bottle test is easy enough, that would have nice to prove/disprove the FRPV as an issue instead of sitting in a parking lot for 5 hrs.

Great to know about the RPMs!, the limp mode only ever happened when I had to slow down on a hill waiting for a car to pass, so I can pass the semi in front of me.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 07:37 AM
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Hot fuel and collapsing lines will cause this. My 09 LMM had 0087 issues before I added my lift pump. You can put a single Kennedy lift pump (or double if tuned) easily on the frame rail in line with the fuel feed for a very easy, simple fix for this. Check to make sure no leaks after install by the fuel filter head and you'll be in good shape. i've towed heavy with this setup for over 20k miles including many mountain passes. Now I get a reduced power message ONLY when really hot, which I expect is high fuel temp. Also be sure to keep your tank over 1/2 full for mountains.
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
 
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I'm getting a lot of 'worn fuel injector' answers and with 255k miles, seems pretty plausible. Is it worth it to have a fuel injector return flow test (as well as the enhanced)? I'm not really interested in just replacing them all; i'd rather just sell the truck and maybe buy something newer next year. It's about $1500 in labor and testing to have them pulled and bench tested. Even though the enhanced test is supposed to troubleshoot this specific issue, I've heard from two shops that they likely wouldn't see the issue without pulling the injectors.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:45 PM
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IIRC, injector return rates can be checked while in the engine.
It's one of the 6 things that can drain the fuel rails to the point that the pump can't deliver the proper Desired FRP...which results in a fuel limp code thrown.

Note;
All of these potential 'leak' areas are greatly affected by hot fuel, which complicates a correct diagnosis...as it's not a constant.
Hot fuel....usually about an hour or so into a full fuel tank trip, pulling a 13' tall building in the heat of the day.

Make that same trip at night, when it's cooler, and......no problems.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seehad View Post
Left Thursday afternoon and drove about 7 hours with no problems and stayed in Reno. The next day after an hour of driving, it comes back. I had to constantly clear the ECU errors to keep driving. The conditions for this issue are almost always the same.
1. Hot & Dry - This only ever seems to happen when it's >80F outside after an hour of driving
2. Bumpy - If I hit a bump or some rough road, I'm already anticipating it throwing that code on the next hill
3. Towing up a hill >60Mph

I monitored the live data of the OBD tool to see what the fuel rail pressure was. The tool I was reading with shows in psi. When the truck was fine, dring under load the pressure was between 18-22k and more steady. When I'm experiencing issues, the high end is more like 42k and I'll see more dips in the pressure. This may be normal, I just want to add as much data as possible.

Here's some more things to note. I troubleshoot networks for a living so the more data I have the better, even if it might not be relevant.

1. About half of the times I fill up, it's spilling a bit of fuel out of the top
2. Previous owner added a 40gallon tank
3. The fan that kicks on when my truck is about 2600 RPM sounds like a loud kazoo.
4. Random issues with electrical components
a. Mirrors try to move past where they can move, so they keep clicking for about 20 seconds
b. The seat always moves all of the ways back
c. Rear passenger lock sometimes doesn't initiate
d. Trailer brakes don't work, all lights work fine. 2 shops said it's fine but my trailer brakes work with every other vehicle I've tried it on
5. The best fuel economy I get is about 11 mpg. Goes to 6-7mpg when the truck is acting up

I can't afford to let a mechanic look at it and sell me fixes that won't resolve this issue. I'm a technical person but I don't have tools or space to do a bunch of work on this truck & if I do need to replace that fuel pressure regulator, it's going to need a tool I don't have to get it out. I have searched forums for weeks now and reading that some people never fix this is rather depressing. Any advice on where to go next would be appreciated.
You have raised a lot of issues and I will try to address some of them. P0087 is one of he most experienced DTC codes we see on diesel truck forums. The problem with these is that thee isn't just one or two causes of this problem, there are many causes. You need to get fuel from the tank to the engine without any air in the fuel. Air can easily be compressed; fuel can't, and when your trucks needs 24K lbs at the injector, there just can't be any air in the fuel. In the Duramax system, the fuel is sucked under vacuum from the tank all the way into theCP3 fuel pump located on the top of the engine. If there is the tiniest of leaks anywhere in that entire path, air will be sucked into the fuel line and you will have problems. Those 'tiniest of leaks' can be so small that even under 15lbs of pressure, they don't leak fuel out of the lines or components, but air leaks into the line. Once you get the clean, non-aerated full into the engine and to the injectors, the injectors need to work properly; they can't bypass too much fuel among other things.

Common problem points between fuel tank and CP3 pump:

1) The 'draw straw' (fuel pickup line in the tank) could be cracked somewhere along the straw and if this cracked line is above the fuel level, you will suck air into the fuel line. Solution is to fix the cracked draw straw.

2) The fuel moves thru the fuel lines from the tank through both metal and rubber lines to the fuel filter location in the engine compartment and the rubber portion of those lines sometimes can get sucked down and fuel flow is restricted. This is particularly a problem in hot weather, and high fuel system vacuum, like when you are pulling a trailer. One notable point of restriction is where the fuel line comes into the engine compartment on the driver's side of the engine and connects to metal lines. Just before this connection, the line often kinks and restricts fuel flow. I put a wide metal hose clamp on this line at that kink to force the hose to retain it's round configuration.

3) The fuel filter housing has several o-rings that can distort and wear out over time. A new housing complete with new fuel filter is about $135, like an hour's labor to change it out. Some people prefer to buy new 0-rings and gaskets for about $10, but those won't fix a faulty/cracked housing that sometimes happens. The water sensor on the bottom of the fuel filter can also leak vacuum, so check that to be sure it is tight.

4) There are several sections of fuel line from the back to the front and any of the joints can be a vacuum leak point.

5) Either replace your fuel tank cap or test it to make sure it vents (allows air into the tank) properly.

There was a person who had similar problem you did (I don't think he could get his engine to keep running after it started) and tried all the fixes above. It wasn't until he replaced all the lines from the tank to the fuel filter housing with one, single, fuel line, firmly clamped. He promptly sold the truck.

Some people, including me, prefer to add a 'lift pump' to their truck's fuel system. The lift pump is located near the fuel tank and pushes the fuel to the front under a small pressure (7-10 lbs) to eliminate the problems caused by leaky fuel lines. Many people buy pre-engineered kits, adds additional filtration, very good, fairly expensive. On the other hand, I built mine from components and ended up spending about $200. It has been rock solid reliable since installed in 2010. I carry a spare pump ($28 on Amazon), just in case of failure of the existing pump.

My suggested solution for your problem would be a lift pump, home built, and a new fuel filter housing with filter, and a new fuel tank cap. I also suggest that you look at your driving habit and see if there is room for adjustment. Always use tow haul when towing, all hills in 4th or 5th gear, min rpm of 2000, 2400 or more on steeper climbs like going to Eisenhower tunnel. You might need to slow down going up hill. When approaching big hills, fill your tank with fresh (cool) fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seehad View Post
Left Thursday afternoon and drove about 7 hours with no problems and stayed in Reno. The next day after an hour of driving, it comes back. I had to constantly clear the ECU errors to keep driving. The conditions for this issue are almost always the same.
1. Hot & Dry - This only ever seems to happen when it's >80F outside after an hour of driving
2. Bumpy - If I hit a bump or some rough road, I'm already anticipating it throwing that code on the next hill
3. Towing up a hill >60Mph
I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention bumpy or rough road as a contributing cause of this problem. Hot and dry, up hill > 60, definitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seehad View Post
I monitored the live data of the OBD tool to see what the fuel rail pressure was. The tool I was reading with shows in psi. When the truck was fine, driving under load the pressure was between 18-22k and more steady. When I'm experiencing issues, the high end is more like 42k and I'll see more dips in the pressure. This may be normal, I just want to add as much data as possible.
I've never heard of anyone having such a high fuel rail pressure. Maybe you meant 24K?? The P0097 does happen at high fuel rail pressures, then the fuel supply fails to sufficiently keep up that pressure, it falls, and you the get the code.

1. About half of the times I fill up, it's spilling a bit of fuel out of the top - Yes, the foamy diesel is a problem near the top of the tank, just let foam subside and go slow
2. Previous owner added a 40gallon tank - Is this a fuel tank? Any involvement with this tank the the P0097 problem?
3. The fan that kicks on when my truck is about 2600 RPM sounds like a loud kazoo. When the fan locks up, it can be quite loud. Check your fan shroud to make sure it is mounted firmly, no bolts missing. Look for marks on the fan to indicate it is making contact with something.
4. Random issues with electrical components These can be frustrating, but to simplify, the problem is usually power or grounds or the 5V reference circuit for sensors.
a. Mirrors try to move past where they can move, so they keep clicking for about 20 seconds Same
b. The seat always moves all of the ways back Same
c. Rear passenger lock sometimes doesn't initiate Same
d. Trailer brakes don't work, all lights work fine. 2 shops said it's fine but my trailer brakes work with every other vehicle I've tried it on. Do you have the integrated brake controller in your truck, or aftermarket? If integrated (ITBM), is your ABS light on the dash lit up? If the ABS has any failure, that will stop the ITBM for all braking effort. Fix the ABS problem and you will likely have trailer brakes again. The ITBC Relay is bad, this will also cause a no brake system. This could be LOTS and LOTS of things, not difficult to fix but very difficult to figure out what to fix.
5. The best fuel economy I get is about 11 mpg. Goes to 6-7mpg when the truck is acting up.Another new one here. I have gotten that kind of mileage but only when driving directly into a very stiff (30+ MPH) wind. My 5th wheel is over 13' high and has a very flat front, not very aerodynamic. If your injectors were bypassing lots of fuel back to the tank, your speedo could calculate high fuel use, but the fuel would still be in the tank. You ran out of fuel. Not sure I see a connection.

Definitely look up the fuel bypass test mentioned preciously. This is a simple test that looks at the total volume of bypassed fuel returning to the tank. Remove a line or two, capture the bypassed fuel when cranking the engine, see how much it is. If too much fuel is collected it means that one (no specific injector information) or more injectors must be tested to see which ones are bad. Your problem could be bad injectors, or a bad CP3 pump. Sometimes tuning can help with this if needed.

In conclusion, I THINK the problem could likely be solved for $500 or so, doing the work yourself: fuel filter head,lift pump, fuel cap.

Ron Nielson
2008 Silverado LT, CCLB, Edge Insight CTS
2009 Arctic Fox 29-5T, Silver Fox Edition, Onan 3600 LPG generator
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 07:13 PM
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I consistently have a DIC 'gallons used' error whenever a P0087 fuel limp hits.
And this also affects MPG too, with a substantial drop.

Yes, it's never correct....by a gallon or so. But anytime within a full tank's use that a fuel limp hits, it'll be 5-6 gallons or more off from actual on a refill. It didn't leak out, but it dumps somewhere.

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Use-ta Haves 2006-6.0 3500 WT DRW ExCab Flatbed, 2005-LLY 3500 LS DRW Crew Cab, 2002-LB7 3500 LS DRW Crew Cab
I Live my life in such a way that when my feet hit the floor in the morning...Satan shudders & says "Oh shit, he's awake!"
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