L5P and after will never be tuned. Period. - Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum
2017-19 GM T-K2 Platform Powertrain Discussion of components that are directly involved in the power production and all that is needed to get and keep the truck moving . Engine , Transmission, Etc.

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post #1 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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L5P and after will never be tuned. Period.

Folks this is my first post, so I thought I would come in with a bang. Lol.

Background: I drove Ford trucks from High School in the mid 80's to a new 2011 F-350. Never owned a GM truck in my life. Had all the problems with the Navistar 6.0's and 6.4's then three radiators and 2 blown turbos on the 2011 6.7, done with FoMoCo......which resulted in a 2013 Ram 3500 and then a 2015 Ram 3500 in my driveway. Sold the 2015 Ram 3500 this spring and went the summer without a truck, mainly because I didn't want another Ram of the same generation as my previous two, and, the new 2017 Superduty's are RIDICULOUSLY priced with minimal discounts.....nice trucks though.

So I'm driving by the local Chevy dealer last week, and sitting out front is a 2017 Regular Cab/LB loaded LTZ Duramax. Took it for a test drive and LOVED IT. Power for days, quiet, and it's been 25 years since I owned a regular cab truck.....a real man's truck as my Pop's always said. $58K MSRP, year-end clearance marked at $49K and I got them down to $45K....$13K off MSRP is not a bad deal + it fit's in my garage on the house instead of all the way out in the shop.

So Friday I had it at the dealer to get the TSB 17-NA-171 ECM/TCM updates done, and while I'm waiting I run into the dealership IT manager who I know quite well since my company has provided IT support services for them off and on for years. Big dealership, multiple locations all over the state, so he oversees a lot. Being a 25-year veteran IT Engineer/Manager myself, we got into a detailed discussion on the back-end architecture/process of how the new Duramax ECM/TCM is programmed and updated. WOW.

GM's Phase-1 overall process involves multi-factor authentication involving dealer employees/credentials and a Diffie-Hellman 2048 bit key exchange using a SHA-256 hash digest that is unique for each VIN ECM/TCM. The implementation is well thought out and done correctly, and put quite simply, there is no attack surface to exploit. GM's implementation of software key management coupled with unique features in hardware allow them to change any of this dynamically from model year to model year, or even production job to production job. The main concept to keep in mind is this is not a STATIC security implementation restricted by hardware limits where once cracked, always cracked (essential in developing an aftermarket solution). In the unlikely event of an exploit, GM can dynamically alter their system, and via On-Star (which uses the same system) issue OTA updates (whether you have an active subscription or not) or send update notices in the mail. Remember, this is simply a key exchange update process, something that every Wi-Fi hot spot does routinely.

Based on years of personal experience, IMHO the aftermarket will not be tuning or modifying these trucks ever.

Diffie-Hellman 2048/SHA-256 if implemented correctly as done by GM, is un-crackable......even by the NSA. Current estimates to crack Diffie-Hellman 1024 is 35,000,000 core years.....ie it would take 35 million cpu cores 1 year to crack a single key exchange.....and the key exchange is unique for each VIN#. Diffie-Hellman 2048bit???......forget about it, not going to happen.

Furthermore, I mentioned Phase-1 above....which on the L5P does not encrypt the actual software on the ECM/TCM. Phase-2 roll-out in the next gen trucks (as well as Corvette and other vehicles) is full encryption of the key exchange and module software.

From what I was told, Ford and Fiat/Chrysler are not far behind.

I've had several trucks tuned over the years, and I hate the emissions crap on these new trucks as much as anyone, but, I'm afraid we are nearing the end of an era.

At least they gave us 450HP and 900+ ft-lbs of torque stock......there are worse things!!
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post #2 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 01:59 PM
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Itís already been tuned. While I agree the current control modules are going to be difficult to crack, itíll just take some time. The out of the box solutions are already available. Gale has created standalone ecuís capable of custom tuning. So to say never, has already been disproven.

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post #3 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbowizard View Post
Folks this is my first post, so I thought I would come in with a bang. Lol.

Background: I drove Ford trucks from High School in the mid 80's to a new 2011 F-350. Never owned a GM truck in my life. Had all the problems with the Navistar 6.0's and 6.4's then three radiators and 2 blown turbos on the 2011 6.7, done with FoMoCo......which resulted in a 2013 Ram 3500 and then a 2015 Ram 3500 in my driveway. Sold the 2015 Ram 3500 this spring and went the summer without a truck, mainly because I didn't want another Ram of the same generation as my previous two, and, the new 2017 Superduty's are RIDICULOUSLY priced with minimal discounts.....nice trucks though.

So I'm driving by the local Chevy dealer last week, and sitting out front is a 2017 Regular Cab/LB loaded LTZ Duramax. Took it for a test drive and LOVED IT. Power for days, quiet, and it's been 25 years since I owned a regular cab truck.....a real man's truck as my Pop's always said. $58K MSRP, year-end clearance marked at $49K and I got them down to $45K....$13K off MSRP is not a bad deal + it fit's in my garage on the house instead of all the way out in the shop.

So Friday I had it at the dealer to get the TSB 17-NA-171 ECM/TCM updates done, and while I'm waiting I run into the dealership IT manager who I know quite well since my company has provided IT support services for them off and on for years. Big dealership, multiple locations all over the state, so he oversees a lot. Being a 25-year veteran IT Engineer/Manager myself, we got into a detailed discussion on the back-end architecture/process of how the new Duramax ECM/TCM is programmed and updated. WOW.

GM's Phase-1 overall process involves multi-factor authentication involving dealer employees/credentials and a Diffie-Hellman 2048 bit key exchange using a SHA-256 hash digest that is unique for each VIN ECM/TCM. The implementation is well thought out and done correctly, and put quite simply, there is no attack surface to exploit. GM's implementation of software key management coupled with unique features in hardware allow them to change any of this dynamically from model year to model year, or even production job to production job. The main concept to keep in mind is this is not a STATIC security implementation restricted by hardware limits where once cracked, always cracked (essential in developing an aftermarket solution). In the unlikely event of an exploit, GM can dynamically alter their system, and via On-Star (which uses the same system) issue OTA updates (whether you have an active subscription or not) or send update notices in the mail. Remember, this is simply a key exchange update process, something that every Wi-Fi hot spot does routinely.

Based on years of personal experience, IMHO the aftermarket will not be tuning or modifying these trucks ever.

Diffie-Hellman 2048/SHA-256 if implemented correctly as done by GM, is un-crackable......even by the NSA. Current estimates to crack Diffie-Hellman 1024 is 35,000,000 core years.....ie it would take 35 million cpu cores 1 year to crack a single key exchange.....and the key exchange is unique for each VIN#. Diffie-Hellman 2048bit???......forget about it, not going to happen.

Furthermore, I mentioned Phase-1 above....which on the L5P does not encrypt the actual software on the ECM/TCM. Phase-2 roll-out in the next gen trucks (as well as Corvette and other vehicles) is full encryption of the key exchange and module software.

From what I was told, Ford and Fiat/Chrysler are not far behind.

I've had several trucks tuned over the years, and I hate the emissions crap on these new trucks as much as anyone, but, I'm afraid we are nearing the end of an era.

At least they gave us 450HP and 900+ ft-lbs of torque stock......there are worse things!!
Like I said in the other thread you posted in......Nonsense!
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post #4 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TX_DMax17 View Post
Itís already been tuned. While I agree the current control modules are going to be difficult to crack, itíll just take some time. The out of the box solutions are already available. Gale has created standalone ecuís capable of custom tuning. So to say never, has already been disproven.
No it has not. No third party has programmed the L5P ecm and no one will. There are no out of the box solutions currently available that retain the factory ecm.

Sure GB and others could develop aftermarket ecm's that could replace the factory ECM on a track/race truck with Autometer Gauges, aftermarket hvac and aftermarket audio......but none of the factory instrument cluster, HVAC, audio, BCM, human interface modules, power windows, steering, etc......NONE of it will work because it has security dependencies on the factory ECM. Every module that communicates with the ECM/TCM uses 2048 bit Diffie-Hellman key exchange with a SHA-256 hash.....and aftermarket ecm's will not have any of that.....useless for a daily/street driven truck.

I worked at AC-Delco for two years after I graduated from Purdue when all of the protocols and technology was being developed for OBD-II in the 1996 model year.....I saw the beginnings of whats going on today back then.

Encryption security is simply math. It's absolute and inviolable and it's been coming for a long time.
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post #5 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Not trying to troll here fella's.......just the facts about how this technology works.

GM expended a lot of R&D $$$ developing this system. Unless they specifically allow it....maybe via a factory special program with a major aftermarket company for limited editions, etc.....I can't see how the aftermarket is going to develop anything for these new systems going forward.
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post #6 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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EFILive (some pretty smart guys) gave up on L5P ECM.

Quote from their forum MOD:

"There is no encryption as such but there is SHA-256 signatures on every calibration segment and the OS, no external reflash bootloader permitted so the signature validation cannot be bypassed and to top it off the JTAG/BDM is 128bit password protected.

Be prepared to accept that these may never be tunable, nobody but GM can generate the SHA-256 signatures and if someone does they will likely be sued by GM because SHA-256 is not crackable."
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post #7 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbowizard View Post
EFILive (some pretty smart guys) gave up on L5P ECM.

Quote from their forum MOD:

"There is no encryption as such but there is SHA-256 signatures on every calibration segment and the OS, no external reflash bootloader permitted so the signature validation cannot be bypassed and to top it off the JTAG/BDM is 128bit password protected.

Be prepared to accept that these may never be tunable, nobody but GM can generate the SHA-256 signatures and if someone does they will likely be sued by GM because SHA-256 is not crackable."
That's old news.

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post #8 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 04:05 PM
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L5P and after will never be tuned. Period.

Marking this thread to revisit in a year from now...


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post #9 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 04:12 PM
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Don't feed the troll brothers.
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DPF/SCR technology summarized in three words: It doesn't work.
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post #10 of 1344 (permalink) Old 09-24-2017, 04:30 PM
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Is it 2012 again? People were actually telling me this about the lml at a dyno event where I was a spectator, standing in front of my lml with twins and efi live tuning. I guess time will tell.
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