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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone know about programmers for the LML as far as their code "watermark" goes?

On my 07 Yukon, I have a BullyDog Triple Dog GT which has a 'zero-watermark" feature which basically means that you can reset the ECU back to stock and the programmer removes all traces/codes of it every being installed on the vehicle. I know this is legit for a fact as I had a trani issue and they ran OBDII codes after I reset and removed my BullyDog and they didn't pull any codes and fixed the issue under warranty.

Is the 'zero-watermark" feature still viable on programmers for new models? I've heard a lot of folks say that the ECUs on new trucks are smarter now and that if you install a programmer, the code will go in and there is no getting it out no matter what. That would undoubtedly void the warranty.

I ask because on H&S's site it says that with the Mini Maxx you can view and clear codes...? Would that mean clear the codes so you don't get warning lights or clear the codes from the ECU entirely?

I just bought a 2011 Sierra LML and a DPF delete kit with a downpipe back exhaust and an H&S programmer. Basically, I'm wondering if I do have some kind of warranty issue and I need to bring it in to the shop, can I pull off the exhaust and programmer and reset it all back to stock and be okay or can they tell now on newer trucks?
 

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No way around it with today's ECM's. If you delete the DPF/urea system, you are almost 100% deleting your powertrain warranty. With powertrain issues, GM will usually request a snapshot with the TechII if any non GM issued tunes have been installed, if so, you will be denied. Unfortunately it's not as easy as it used to be. I deleted my DPF on my LMM within 3000 miles off the lot, knock on wood, no issues and I've done alot to my truck that I know I don't have a warranty anymore. But, I don't expect GM to pay for something I modified either, gotta pay to play is more relavant today than ever. Enjoy that LML, sounds like GM really stepped it up with that one! Chris
 

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No way around it with today's ECM's. If you delete the DPF/urea system, you are almost 100% deleting your powertrain warranty. With powertrain issues, GM will usually request a snapshot with the TechII if any non GM issued tunes have been installed, if so, you will be denied. Unfortunately it's not as easy as it used to be. I deleted my DPF on my LMM within 3000 miles off the lot, knock on wood, no issues and I've done alot to my truck that I know I don't have a warranty anymore. But, I don't expect GM to pay for something I modified either, gotta pay to play is more relavant today than ever. Enjoy that LML, sounds like GM really stepped it up with that one! Chris
He's right... Removing the DPF will be traceable and if the failure requires the dealer to take a snap shot warranty will be denied.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
That's pretty much what I figured. Maybe we'll get lucky and someone will figure it out at some point, its just a computer after all, there is no such this an 'uncrackable' when it comes to programming.

I do have a follow up though, I spoke with the Service Director at the stealership the other day about the warranties in specific. He said that If I delete the DPF and/or the DEF system it will void the 3/36K EMISSIONS warranty but that it will NOT void the 5/100K powertrain as long as the CAT is still intact. "Loose the CAT, loose your warranty" he said.

Well the first thought that popped into my head was that if you remove your DEF and DPF, you have to have a programmer to correct the ECU. So is this a catch-22 that you can technically remove the DPF and keep your warranty but you can't really because you have to program it to remove the DPF which voids the warranty?

And one other question, the Hypertech speedo calibrator is technically a tuner, granted the only thing it does it recalibrate the speddo but it does this by modifying the settings on the ECU and it does not void the warranty. How can the tech's tell the difference between the codes of the Hypertech and the H&S? Afterall, there are no codes for 'modified...' or 'changed...', only high/lows and errors....

DTC List - H&S Performance
 

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Removing the DPF/SCR/Cat do not void warranties, it's the required tuner that is used to remove the codes that will void the warranty.
 

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it depends on the dealer. And if the malfunction had to do with the tuner. If your alternator goes out they cant say thats because you added power. That has nothing to do with that. But if u smoke your tranny they can say it was because you increased power with a tuner.
 

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Removing the DPF/SCR/Cat do not void warranties, it's the required tuner that is used to remove the codes that will void the warranty.

:thumb That would be correct.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So it's a catch-22, we can remove our emissions but we can't correct the CPU once we do.

Yet another question now... would a dealer fix the CPU for us? I know it sounds ridiculous but hear me out. When I was buying my 2011 Denali, we discussed building a 2012. One of the options the dealer has available when building the truck is "exclude federal 50-state emission" meaning they can choose to order the truck without the emissions systems installed from the factory. This could only mean that the ECU has to be factory programmable to run without these systems. Since the emissions and power train systems are separate of each other, I wonder if a tech could fix the ECU to allow for removal of the emissions thereby voiding the emissions warranty but leaving the power train warranty intact and having the truck run right without codes...? I might have to grease some palms to get some real answers...
 

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So it's a catch-22, we can remove our emissions but we can't correct the CPU once we do.

Yet another question now... would a dealer fix the CPU for us? I know it sounds ridiculous but hear me out. When I was buying my 2011 Denali, we discussed building a 2012. One of the options the dealer has available when building the truck is "exclude federal 50-state emission" meaning they can choose to order the truck without the emissions systems installed from the factory. This could only mean that the ECU has to be factory programmable to run without these systems. Since the emissions and power train systems are separate of each other, I wonder if a tech could fix the ECU to allow for removal of the emissions thereby voiding the emissions warranty but leaving the power train warranty intact and having the truck run right without codes...? I might have to grease some palms to get some real answers...
First a question... What dealer do you work with?

Here's the deal, in theory a tech could get a hold of a flash file to remove emissions equipment and get it appropriately listed for your vehicle so that your CDN values match appropriately. I think this plan stops in theory though, since I doubt GM would condone this option.

In all reality though, I doubt you could order a non-federal emissions vehicle delivered to the United States, unfortunately I imagine this is only available for vehicles shipped out of country.

If you can get this done, I say go for it. I doubt you will be successful though.
 

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If GM could sell vehicles in this country which didn't meet emission standards, they wouldn't have spent billions of dollars developing such systems.

Do you really think that GM would risk losing their permission to manufacture, just to please one customer? Or, do you think a dealer would risk losing their franchise or incurring heavy fines, just to please one customer?
 

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So it's a catch-22, we can remove our emissions but we can't correct the CPU once we do.

Yet another question now... would a dealer fix the CPU for us? I know it sounds ridiculous but hear me out. When I was buying my 2011 Denali, we discussed building a 2012. One of the options the dealer has available when building the truck is "exclude federal 50-state emission" meaning they can choose to order the truck without the emissions systems installed from the factory. This could only mean that the ECU has to be factory programmable to run without these systems. Since the emissions and power train systems are separate of each other, I wonder if a tech could fix the ECU to allow for removal of the emissions thereby voiding the emissions warranty but leaving the power train warranty intact and having the truck run right without codes...? I might have to grease some palms to get some real answers...
Easy answer No but yes the dealer could turn it all off. During the first runs there was issues and some trucks were called in and reprogramed and a GM sticker was installed under the hood saying what was done and it had to be removed at a set time. I will look up the TSB report later today on this.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If GM could sell vehicles in this country which didn't meet emission standards, they wouldn't have spent billions of dollars developing such systems.

Do you really think that GM would risk losing their permission to manufacture, just to please one customer? Or, do you think a dealer would risk losing their franchise or incurring heavy fines, just to please one customer?
GM, along with every other manufacturer was required to design and build engines to meet the NCDC regulatory standards for emmissions but emmissions requirement are state specific. For example, the state of Texas does not require emmissions testing for NOx or PM on diesel powered vehicles or gas powered motorcycles or any vehicle not registered for on-road use (farm equipment, locomotives, airplanes, etc...)

The reason every single truck GM builds is equipped with the NCDC compliant emmissions system is that it is 50 State Compliant and building vehicles without these emmissions would limit the ability to sell the vehicle to the ever-dwindling number of states without the emmissions requirements.

Production of vehicles without the 50 State Compliant emmissions is permitted under law when a vehicle is built and delivered specifically to a state not requiring the emmissions systems. That is why you can build a vehicle without the emmissions systems in certain states, Texas for example. The vehicle cannot be sold, transfered, or titled outside of the state it was delivered to in this instance. I speak from experience in the matter as I recently ordered a motorcycle without the 50 State Compliant emmissions equipment and received my bike without the PCV and EVAP systems, both required by CARB (California specific) and The Clean Air Act (national regulation). This was possible because my dealership was located in Texas where motorcycle emmissions is not required. I was also required to sign a form stating that the vehicle was non-50 State Compliant and could not be sold or transfered out of the state in which the vehicle was purchased and delivered. The NCDC is a part of The Clean Air Act, it is not its own regulation therefore it is bound by the rules and regulations of The Clean Air Act as well as the regulations within the NCDC. The Clean Air Act covers all engines, spark induction and combustion induction, on-road, and off-road, light-duty and heavy-duty, even locomotives, farm equipment, and engines not powering vehicles such as the ones used on oil derricks. It is not vehicle specific nor is it limited to vehicles exclusively.

The specific question I had was regarding a dealer modifing the ECU for removal of the emmissions system on a vehicle factory equipped with the 50 State Emmissions designation. This is obviously hypothetically possible as the ECU is capable of being programmed without emmissions equipment both by GM and aftermarket programmers. The part that I believe is completely infeasable is a dealer modfying an ECU for removal of the emmissions system. The vehicle would no longer be 50 State Compliant but would still hold the 50 State Compliant designation as being originally equipped as such and without the declaration of non-compliance being on file for the vehicle. This would create an issue where the vehicle could then be legally sold even though it is non-compliant.

The one caveot I question is if it is possible to inact the non-compliance and remove the 50 State Compliant designation after the fact and have the ECU reprogrammed as such with removal of the emmissions equipment. I agree with DirtyMax in the fact that I seriously doubt that a dealer would do this for a customer or if it is even legally possible to modify the OEM configuration of a vehicle for record but if there are any GM Diesel techs out there that know for sure, I'd love to get your opinion.

Oh and by the way, for HD trucks with a GVWR of 10,000 or less, GM can pay a fine of $240 to the EPA to produce a engine without the 50 State Compliant emmissions and sell the vehicle in any state they wish as part of the EPAs NCDC Flexibility Act through 2015. Not even a blip on the radar to GM or a dealership for that matter and the idea of them loosing their manufacturing license or a dealership loosing its franchising rights is absurd.
 

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GM, along with every other manufacturer was required to design and build engines to meet the NCDC regulatory standards for emmissions but emmissions requirement are state specific. For example, the state of Texas does not require emmissions testing for NOx or PM on diesel powered vehicles or gas powered motorcycles or any vehicle not registered for on-road use (farm equipment, locomotives, airplanes, etc...)

The reason every single truck GM builds is equipped with the NCDC compliant emmissions system is that it is 50 State Compliant and building vehicles without these emmissions would limit the ability to sell the vehicle to the ever-dwindling number of states without the emmissions requirements.

Production of vehicles without the 50 State Compliant emmissions is permitted under law when a vehicle is built and delivered specifically to a state not requiring the emmissions systems. That is why you can build a vehicle without the emmissions systems in certain states, Texas for example. The vehicle cannot be sold, transfered, or titled outside of the state it was delivered to in this instance. I speak from experience in the matter as I recently ordered a motorcycle without the 50 State Compliant emmissions equipment and received my bike without the PCV and EVAP systems, both required by CARB (California specific) and The Clean Air Act (national regulation). This was possible because my dealership was located in Texas where motorcycle emmissions is not required. I was also required to sign a form stating that the vehicle was non-50 State Compliant and could not be sold or transfered out of the state in which the vehicle was purchased and delivered. The NCDC is a part of The Clean Air Act, it is not its own regulation therefore it is bound by the rules and regulations of The Clean Air Act as well as the regulations within the NCDC. The Clean Air Act covers all engines, spark induction and combustion induction, on-road, and off-road, light-duty and heavy-duty, even locomotives, farm equipment, and engines not powering vehicles such as the ones used on oil derricks. It is not vehicle specific nor is it limited to vehicles exclusively.

The specific question I had was regarding a dealer modifing the ECU for removal of the emmissions system on a vehicle factory equipped with the 50 State Emmissions designation. This is obviously hypothetically possible as the ECU is capable of being programmed without emmissions equipment both by GM and aftermarket programmers. The part that I believe is completely infeasable is a dealer modfying an ECU for removal of the emmissions system. The vehicle would no longer be 50 State Compliant but would still hold the 50 State Compliant designation as being originally equipped as such and without the declaration of non-compliance being on file for the vehicle. This would create an issue where the vehicle could then be legally sold even though it is non-compliant.

The one caveot I question is if it is possible to inact the non-compliance and remove the 50 State Compliant designation after the fact and have the ECU reprogrammed as such with removal of the emmissions equipment. I agree with DirtyMax in the fact that I seriously doubt that a dealer would do this for a customer or if it is even legally possible to modify the OEM configuration of a vehicle for record but if there are any GM Diesel techs out there that know for sure, I'd love to get your opinion.

Oh and by the way, for HD trucks with a GVWR of 10,000 or less, GM can pay a fine of $240 to the EPA to produce a engine without the 50 State Compliant emmissions and sell the vehicle in any state they wish as part of the EPAs NCDC Flexibility Act through 2015. Not even a blip on the radar to GM or a dealership for that matter and the idea of them loosing their manufacturing license or a dealership loosing its franchising rights is absurd.
Emissions requirements are federal, state level requirements can meet or exceed federal requirements.

You'll note there are Cali model LB7s which had more extensive emissions requirements as you mention in your bike. DPF is a federal requirement and not a state level requirement. Removing emissions equipment violates federal and state law even if emissions testing is not required.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Emissions requirements are federal, state level requirements can meet or exceed federal requirements.

You'll note there are Cali model LB7s which had more extensive emissions requirements as you mention in your bike. DPF is a federal requirement and not a state level requirement. Removing emissions equipment violates federal and state law even if emissions testing is not required.
That's my thought as well. Screw it, what good is a warranty anyways? No matter what breaks, the dealerships/manufacturer always try to fight you to not cover whatever it is. Besides, the national warranty statistics show a total of 4 warranty claims on the 6.6L series internal motor component failure since its inception. The trani, now thats a different story...
 

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That's my thought as well. Screw it, what good is a warranty anyways? No matter what breaks, the dealerships/manufacturer always try to fight you to not cover whatever it is. Besides, the national warranty statistics show a total of 4 warranty claims on the 6.6L series internal motor component failure since its inception. The trani, now thats a different story...
Most of us have chosen to void our warranty without looking back.

A manufacturer can NOT sell a not emissions compliant engine in the US.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The emissions requirements for an engine's output stop at the engine. The exhaust system is part of the emissions systems but it not required under federal law:

Current federal regulations do not require that complete heavy-duty diesel vehicles be chassis certified, instead requiring certification of their engines (as an option, complete heavy-duty diesel vehicles under 14,000 lbs can be chassis certified). Consequently, the basic standards are expressed in g/bhp·hr and require emission testing over the Transient FTP engine dynamometer cycle (however, chassis certification may be required for complete heavy-duty gasoline vehicles with pertinent emission standards expressed in g/mile).

Anything in addition to this is state specific (DPF, CAT, DEF, EGR)
 

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The emissions requirements for an engine's output stop at the engine. The exhaust system is part of the emissions systems but it not required under federal law:

Current federal regulations do not require that complete heavy-duty diesel vehicles be chassis certified, instead requiring certification of their engines (as an option, complete heavy-duty diesel vehicles under 14,000 lbs can be chassis certified). Consequently, the basic standards are expressed in g/bhp·hr and require emission testing over the Transient FTP engine dynamometer cycle (however, chassis certification may be required for complete heavy-duty gasoline vehicles with pertinent emission standards expressed in g/mile).

Anything in addition to this is state specific (DPF, CAT, DEF, EGR)
In order to meet federal requirements, after-treatment is required and mandatory. After treatment includes DPF, DOC, SCR, and EGR.

Basic Information | Emission Standards Reference Guide | US EPA

Over time, manufacturers have responded to tighter emission standards by improving engine and vehicle technology, including:

designing highly efficient combustion systems to minimize exhaust pollution
introducing vapor recovery systems to capture evaporating gasoline
using computer technologies to monitor and control engine performance
developing effective "after treatment" technologies, such as catalytic converters and particulate filters that remove pollutants from the exhaust stream before they can escape into the atmosphere
Engine manufacturers receive certifications based on after treatment that is attached, you can change your after treatment if your after treatment reduces emissions to legal levels. Additionally, some places require approved after treatment such as California which further limits your options.

For the on highway light duty market, aftermarket after treatment is not common or necessary.

The on highway heavy duty diesel market has been retrofitting after treatment for years now.

That said, full circle.... In order to meet federal EPA / ARB requirements vehicle and engine manufacturers install emissions equipment based on EPA certifications to meet federal requirements. This equipment is required in the continental United States in all 50 states.
 

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More reading..

Emission Standards: USA: Cars and Light-Duty Trucks?Tier 2

Regulatory Announcement: Light-Duty Diesel Tier 2 Amendments | Tier 2 Vehicle & Gasoline Sulfur Program | US EPA

The EPA Tier 2 program uses a three-tiered compliance strategy. Pre-production evaluation is used to certify vehicles prior to sale. A production evaluation is used on the assembly line for early evaluation of production vehicles. Finally in-use evaluation is used to verify properly maintained vehicles after several years of use.

The Tier 2 regulation brought new requirements for fuel quality. Cleaner fuels are required by advanced emission aftertreatment devices (e.g., catalysts and particulate filters) that are needed to meet the regulations.

Sulfur Levels in Gasoline—The program requires that most refiners and importers meet a corporate average gasoline sulfur standard of 120 ppm and a cap of 300 ppm beginning in 2004. Since 2006, the average standard has been reduced to 30 ppm with an 80 ppm sulfur cap. Temporary, less stringent standards applied to some small refiners through 2007. In addition, temporary, less stringent standards applied to a limited geographic area in the western USA for the 2004-2006 period.
Diesel Fuel Quality—Diesel fuel of maximum sulfur level of 15 ppm (known as the ultra low sulfur diesel, ULSD) was made available for highway use beginning in June 2006. The reduction of sulfur content in diesel fuel was legislated by the EPA as a part of the 2007-2010 emission regulation for heavy-duty engines.
 

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I do have a follow up though, I spoke with the Service Director at the stealership the other day about the warranties in specific. He said that If I delete the DPF and/or the DEF system it will void the 3/36K EMISSIONS warranty but that it will NOT void the 5/100K powertrain as long as the CAT is still intact. "Loose the CAT, loose your warranty" he said.]
the CAT and the DPF are two different things...maybe i read your post wrong
but, you can keep the CAT and still lose the dpf.
 

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the CAT and the DPF are two different things...maybe i read your post wrong
but, you can keep the CAT and still lose the dpf.
That is what he was saying I think..

The service advisor told him he could delete the DPF/SCR without voiding warranty, but the GM dealer was wrong. To remove DPF/SCR you need a tuner which will void the warranty.
 
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