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No, sorry.
Pin weight is just that, it gets distributed to the rear axle of the truck, Therefore the higher rear axle rating, don’t forget your hitch weight is your payload rating.
There is no different than putting 3500lbs block in the back of the box, or putting a hitch in there and pinning up to something.
DOT will use the GVW of the trailer and the GVW of the truck, all of that is measured at the axles for your combined Your combined GVWR. The ratings on the tags are what the officer is going to look at, commercial vehicles they will look at your licenced GVWR, with you see on a sticker on the cab of the truck, which you can set at whatever suits your needs for combination. You cannot go over the licensed commercial vehicles GVWR, same as the GVWR of the truck and the trailer.
The beauty thing about a bumper pull, I can transfer weight off the rear axle to the front axle, I can also do that with the trailer axles as well, all with adjusting the hitch.

Using your example the truck has a GVWR of 10000lbs and a travel trailer has a GVWR of 12000lbs, your saying you can roll on a scale and be 25000lbs combined and be legal weight?


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No, I'm saying no such thing. If the truck has a GVWR of 10k and the trailer's is 12k, and the truck has no GCWR on its door sticker (or if it's greater than the sum of the individual units' GVWRs), then the legal GCWR of that combination is 10k+12k=22k. Provided that none of the axle and tire ratings are exceeded that is the maximum legal gross weight of the combination. In such a combination, the truck could have 5k on the front axle, 7k on the rear axle, and the remaining 10k on the trailer axles and be totally legal even though the sum of the truck's axle weights is 12k, which exceeds its GVWR of 10k.

However, for a single unit scenario, those truck axle weights would put it over its GVWR and hence the truck could not be operated legally.
 

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VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 1. WORDS AND PHRASES DEFINED [100 - 681]

( Division 1 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

350.
(a) “Gross vehicle weight rating” (GVWR) means the weight specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.
(b) Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the weight specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination or articulated vehicle. In the absence of a weight specified by the manufacturer, GCWR shall be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total unladen weight of the towed units and any load thereon.
(Added by renumbering Section 390 by Stats. 2000, Ch. 861, Sec. 14. Effective September 29, 2000. Operative December 31, 2001, pursuant to Sec. 67 of Ch. 861.)
 

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VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 15. SIZE, WEIGHT, AND LOAD [35000 - 35796]

( Division 15 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

CHAPTER 5. Weight [35550 - 35796]
( Chapter 5 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )


ARTICLE 1. Axle Limits [35550 - 35558]
( Article 1 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )
35550.
(a) The gross weight imposed upon the highway by the wheels on any one axle of a vehicle shall not exceed 20,000 pounds and the gross weight upon any one wheel, or wheels, supporting one end of an axle, and resting upon the roadway, shall not exceed 10,500 pounds.
(b) The gross weight limit provided for weight bearing upon any one wheel, or wheels, supporting one end of an axle shall not apply to vehicles the loads of which consist of livestock.
(c) The maximum wheel load is the lesser of the following:
(1) The load limit established by the tire manufacturer, as molded on at least one sidewall of the tire.
(2) A load of 620 pounds per lateral inch of tire width, as determined by the manufacturer’s rated tire width as molded on at least one sidewall of the tire for all axles except the steering axle, in which case paragraph (1) applies.
(Amended by Stats. 1996, Ch. 1154, Sec. 82. Effective September 30, 1996.)
 

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So these are some of the laws in california. The second post makes it pretty clear that the tire weight limits are going to be one if the LEGAL limiting factors. Everything that dictates what is enforceable is dictated by your states codes. Mostly by the vehicle vodes, but some laws will appear in other codes (business and professions code, health and safety code, etc.) When you get into commercial loads, the game changes a lot. There are pages upon pages of laws that apply to commercial loads. And of course, all states can and do vary.
 

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Almost forgot this one

VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 18. PENALTIES AND DISPOSITION OF FEES, FINES, AND FORFEITURES [42000 - 42277]

( Division 18 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

CHAPTER 1. Penalties [42000 - 42032]
( Chapter 1 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )


ARTICLE 2. Weight Violations [42030 - 42032]
( Article 2 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )
42031.
Whenever the gross weight and any axle or wheel weight of a vehicle are in excess of the limits prescribed in this code, the excess weights shall be deemed one offense in violation of this code.
(Enacted by Stats. 1959,
 

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That is incorrect,
The topic is the axles, you cannot be over on the axle weight nor the tire weight rating. Loaded axle weight on all axles on the combined unit.
The rear axle in the above example is 6200 lbs rated. Front is 5200lbs, it does not mean you can load the truck to a weight of 11400lbs,
GVWR cannot be exceeded, wether a trailer is attached or not.


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GM may have given a 6200 lb rating However AAM the mfg of the axle gives the axle 10,000# rating.
 

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No, I'm saying no such thing. If the truck has a GVWR of 10k and the trailer's is 12k, and the truck has no GCWR on its door sticker (or if it's greater than the sum of the individual units' GVWRs), then the legal GCWR of that combination is 10k+12k=22k. Provided that none of the axle and tire ratings are exceeded that is the maximum legal gross weight of the combination. In such a combination, the truck could have 5k on the front axle, 7k on the rear axle, and the remaining 10k on the trailer axles and be totally legal even though the sum of the truck's axle weights is 12k, which exceeds its GVWR of 10k.

However, for a single unit scenario, those truck axle weights would put it over its GVWR and hence the truck could not be operated legally.
Interesting,
In your example you just showed a overweight example, of the OP trucks. Not only did you go over the max the rear axle can handle those two axle numbers put the GVWR of the truck over by 2000lbs. Can the truck handle it? Probably, is it safe? Probably, he didn’t hit the magic number of 26000lbs combined.

Unfortunately, You cannot overload and surpass the weight ratings on the door of the truck, nor the weight ratings on the trailer. The manufacturer already gave leeway on the rear axle and the front axle.
Wether adding a plot to the front of a truck, or adding hitch weight to the box or bumper, the weights on the door have to be observed.
Those two axle numbers together are not used to determine the GVWR or the GCWR of a combination. The person loading the trailer does.
Does not matter if it’s used commercially or personally.

My F-450 service truck is commercially registered for 21,120lbs, that is to cover any trailer I tow in combination, I cannot go over on my truck ratings of a GVWR of 16500lbs, nor can I exceed any axle ratings.

Unfortunately everyone does this, and do not understand the legal ramifications of this, if in a accident although can be tough to prove. IMO.

Know what states or provincials rules, and yes they pull RV’s over in Canada to check weights, it doesn’t happen often, but it does.


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Interesting,
In your example you just showed a overweight example, of the OP trucks. Not only did you go over the max the rear axle can handle those two axle numbers put the GVWR of the truck over by 2000lbs. Can the truck handle it? Probably, is it safe? Probably, he didn’t hit the magic number of 26000lbs combined.

Unfortunately, You cannot overload and surpass the weight ratings on the door of the truck, nor the weight ratings on the trailer. The manufacturer already gave leeway on the rear axle and the front axle.
Wether adding a plot to the front of a truck, or adding hitch weight to the box or bumper, the weights on the door have to be observed.
Those two axle numbers together are not used to determine the GVWR or the GCWR of a combination. The person loading the trailer does.
Does not matter if it’s used commercially or personally.

My F-450 service truck is commercially registered for 21,120lbs, that is to cover any trailer I tow in combination, I cannot go over on my truck ratings of a GVWR of 16500lbs, nor can I exceed any axle ratings.

Unfortunately everyone does this, and do not understand the legal ramifications of this, if in a accident although can be tough to prove. IMO.

Know what states or provincials rules, and yes they pull RV’s over in Canada to check weights, it doesn’t happen often, but it does.


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I don't know how else to put it. The scenario I described is perfectly legal as long as the truck's RGAWR is at least 7k and its FGAWR is at least 5k (these values are about right for a 1-ton SRW truck; I'm not referring to the OP's vehicle, which I understand is a 3/4-ton and has a 6200 lb RGAWR). The individual truck and trailer GVWRs are only relevant for computing their sum, which is the GCWR for the combination provided that no GCWR is printed on the truck's door sticker, or if the printed value exceeds the sum of the individual GVWRs. If this were not true, then as I've pointed out, the pin weight of the trailer would be double-counted against both the truck and trailer GVWRs, which is logically ridiculous and inconsistent with the laws of physics.
 

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I don't know how else to put it. The scenario I described is perfectly legal as long as the truck's RGAWR is at least 7k and its FGAWR is at least 5k (these values are about right for a 1-ton SRW truck; I'm not referring to the OP's vehicle, which I understand is a 3/4-ton and has a 6200 lb RGAWR). The individual truck and trailer GVWRs are only relevant for computing their sum, which is the GCWR for the combination provided that no GCWR is printed on the truck's door sticker, or if the printed value exceeds the sum of the individual GVWRs. If this were not true, then as I've pointed out, the pin weight of the trailer would be double-counted against both the truck and trailer GVWRs, which is logically ridiculous and inconsistent with the laws of physics.
I hope you don’t think I’m arguing, it may come across like it, but in trying to understand your point of view. I thought you were talking about the OP truck, my apologies.


RV dealers and trailer dealers are horrible for selling trailers to people with incapable trucks who don’t understand weights.
I’m still using the OP truck as a example below.
I’m not sure why your hung up on this pin weight thing. There are 8 contact points on 4 axles. I have never seen a GCWR on my Ram or my Ford, what would it matter if there was a max GCWR printed on the inside door if I already knew my max trailer weight was 16000lbs, and I pin up to a poorly loaded or over loaded trailer??
Mass is mass, wether it’s 5 contact points on the ground on a unhooked loaded trailer, or hooked up, the weight gets distributed elsewhere.
Pin weight = payload, just like people in the truck are payload. It’s just like I mentioned earlier, 26000lbs GCWR max recommended total weight, 10000lb truck 16000lb trailer, 8000lb truck 18000lbs trailer. Etc. You still cannot exceed the manufacturer’s ratings, remember It’s the drivers responsibility to insure that max GCWR is within the specs of the tow vehicle and the trailer.


Here is some reading for you if your interested.
I took this out of a government RV towing guide.

“You may have a pickup truck with a towing capacity of 5,500 kg and a load capacity of 1,500 kg, and a fifth wheel RV weighing 5,000 kg fully loaded with a pin weight of 750 kg.
In this example, the gross weight of the trailer is within the towing capacity of the truck, and the pin weight is within the truck’s 1,500 kg load capacity.
But after you subtract the pin weight from the truck’s load capacity, only 750 kg of load capacity remains to accommodate the total weight of all people, fuel and cargo in the truck. Otherwise, the truck’s load capacity and GVWR will be exceeded.
Exceeding your truck’s load capacity and GVWR will significantly affect your vehicle handling and braking, jeopardizing the safety of all road users. It is also illegal, unsafe and can reduce its service life. Police may also ticket you for operating an overweight vehicle. If you are involved in a crash and the overweight problem contributed to the accident, you could be found partially or totally responsible for the crash.”


I wondering, have you ever taken a pickup truck and trailer to a set of scales to setup your axle weights, unhooked and checked what the actual pin weight is loaded?


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I hope you don’t think I’m arguing, it may come across like it, but in trying to understand your point of view. I thought you were talking about the OP truck, my apologies.


RV dealers and trailer dealers are horrible for selling trailers to people with incapable trucks who don’t understand weights.
I’m still using the OP truck as a example below.
I’m not sure why your hung up on this pin weight thing. There are 8 contact points on 4 axles. I have never seen a GCWR on my Ram or my Ford, what would it matter if there was a max GCWR printed on the inside door if I already knew my max trailer weight was 16000lbs, and I pin up to a poorly loaded or over loaded trailer??
Mass is mass, wether it’s 5 contact points on the ground on a unhooked loaded trailer, or hooked up, the weight gets distributed elsewhere.
Pin weight = payload, just like people in the truck are payload. It’s just like I mentioned earlier, 26000lbs GCWR max recommended total weight, 10000lb truck 16000lb trailer, 8000lb truck 18000lbs trailer. Etc. You still cannot exceed the manufacturer’s ratings, remember It’s the drivers responsibility to insure that max GCWR is within the specs of the tow vehicle and the trailer.


Here is some reading for you if your interested.
I took this out of a government RV towing guide.

“You may have a pickup truck with a towing capacity of 5,500 kg and a load capacity of 1,500 kg, and a fifth wheel RV weighing 5,000 kg fully loaded with a pin weight of 750 kg.
In this example, the gross weight of the trailer is within the towing capacity of the truck, and the pin weight is within the truck’s 1,500 kg load capacity.
But after you subtract the pin weight from the truck’s load capacity, only 750 kg of load capacity remains to accommodate the total weight of all people, fuel and cargo in the truck. Otherwise, the truck’s load capacity and GVWR will be exceeded.
Exceeding your truck’s load capacity and GVWR will significantly affect your vehicle handling and braking, jeopardizing the safety of all road users. It is also illegal, unsafe and can reduce its service life. Police may also ticket you for operating an overweight vehicle. If you are involved in a crash and the overweight problem contributed to the accident, you could be found partially or totally responsible for the crash.”


I wondering, have you ever taken a pickup truck and trailer to a set of scales to setup your axle weights, unhooked and checked what the actual pin weight is loaded?


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I appreciate your civility. Regardless of who misunderstands what, I am not lacking in experience. I am a class A CDL holder with hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of heavy duty (including oversized loads up to 231,000 lbs GCW) vehicles both throughout North America and certain portions of the middle east. I have multiple degrees in mechanical engineering so the math and physics that underlie the rules/regulations are well within my comprehension.

I don't mean for any of the above to stand in lieu of the merits or factuality of what I'm saying. But you asked if I'd ever been to a truck scale, and not only is the answer "yes," but I've been to certified truck scales more times than I can count.

Anyway, some of this may be due to differences in US/Canada regulations. In the US, the FMCSA regulations make it (sort of) clear that for a combination (truck and trailer(s) ), the enforced numbers are:

1) GCWR (for new trucks there is usually a GCWR on the door sticker; for older trucks, the GCWR is computed by taking the sum of the individual units' GVWRs -- in the example we were discussing, that's 10k for the truck and 12k for the trailer, or 22k). This is straight out of the FMCSA guidelines; details here (and see the PDF on the linked page).

2) GAWRs (these are always found on the door sticker).

3) Tire load ratings (printed on the tire sidewall).

However, and at the risk of sounding repetitive, individual unit GVWRs (i.e., truck and trailer individually) are not enforceable for combinations. One obvious reason why this is so is that you cannot determine -- without disconnecting the truck/trailer -- what portion of each axle weight is associated with each unit of the combination (due to pin/tongue weight, which isn't known without disconnecting the units). All you can do definitively is measure the axle weights (which can't exceed their respective GAWRs or associated tire load capacities) and the total combination weight (which can't exceed GCWR). Additionally, payloads and towing capacities are not generally enforceable -- there are no regulations/statutes that criminalize exceeding those capacities (to my knowledge -- things can and do change with time).

More information can be found in this thread.

Thus, in the example above, you could have 5k on the front truck axle, 7k on the rear truck axle, and 10k across the trailer axles and be perfectly legal despite the sum of the trucks' axle loadings exceeding its GVWR. This is because the GCWR (the sum of the individual unit GVWRs, since we are assuming GCWR is not listed on this truck's door sticker) is 10k+12k=22k and is thus not exceeded, the axles are all within their rated capacities, and I'm assuming for argument's sake that the tires are spec'd at or beyond the GAWRs. This is a completely standard configuration that crosses government scales at weigh stations daily (i.e. hotshot truckers running pickups commercially) and no one gets ticketed for it. Furthermore, it's in the FMCSA regs (albeit cryptically and lacking in specificity) -- not a whole lot more to say about it.

Again, I appreciate your composure/civility, but if we aren't in agreement at this point I'd rather just attribute the disagreement to my lack of clarity and move on.
 

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I appreciate your civility. Regardless of who misunderstands what, I am not lacking in experience. I am a class A CDL holder with hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of heavy duty (including oversized loads up to 231,000 lbs GCW) vehicles both throughout North America and certain portions of the middle east. I have multiple degrees in mechanical engineering so the math and physics that underlie the rules/regulations are well within my comprehension.

I don't mean for any of the above to stand in lieu of the merits or factuality of what I'm saying. But you asked if I'd ever been to a truck scale, and not only is the answer "yes," but I've been to certified truck scales more times than I can count.

Anyway, some of this may be due to differences in US/Canada regulations. In the US, the FMCSA regulations make it (sort of) clear that for a combination (truck and trailer(s) ), the enforced numbers are:

1) GCWR (for new trucks there is usually a GCWR on the door sticker; for older trucks, the GCWR is computed by taking the sum of the individual units' GVWRs -- in the example we were discussing, that's 10k for the truck and 12k for the trailer, or 22k). This is straight out of the FMCSA guidelines; details here (and see the PDF on the linked page).

2) GAWRs (these are always found on the door sticker).

3) Tire load ratings (printed on the tire sidewall).

However, and at the risk of sounding repetitive, individual unit GVWRs (i.e., truck and trailer individually) are not enforceable for combinations. One obvious reason why this is so is that you cannot determine -- without disconnecting the truck/trailer -- what portion of each axle weight is associated with each unit of the combination (due to pin/tongue weight, which isn't known without disconnecting the units). All you can do definitively is measure the axle weights (which can't exceed their respective GAWRs or associated tire load capacities) and the total combination weight (which can't exceed GCWR). Additionally, payloads and towing capacities are not generally enforceable -- there are no regulations/statutes that criminalize exceeding those capacities (to my knowledge -- things can and do change with time).

More information can be found in this thread.

Thus, in the example above, you could have 5k on the front truck axle, 7k on the rear truck axle, and 10k across the trailer axles and be perfectly legal despite the sum of the trucks' axle loadings exceeding its GVWR. This is because the GCWR (the sum of the individual unit GVWRs, since we are assuming GCWR is not listed on this truck's door sticker) is 10k+12k=22k and is thus not exceeded, the axles are all within their rated capacities, and I'm assuming for argument's sake that the tires are spec'd at or beyond the GAWRs. This is a completely standard configuration that crosses government scales at weigh stations daily (i.e. hotshot truckers running pickups commercially) and no one gets ticketed for it. Furthermore, it's in the FMCSA regs (albeit cryptically and lacking in specificity) -- not a whole lot more to say about it.

Again, I appreciate your composure/civility, but if we aren't in agreement at this point I'd rather just attribute the disagreement to my lack of clarity and move on.
Hey man thanks for that, tone or expression gets lost in texting, and over forums, I was worried sure I was not wording things incorrectly giving a false impression.
I have never hauled a TT in the US and I’m not up on the individual state rules, I’m probably missing something in your presentation, and I’m going off of past experience. I have tried to find info backing up your claim, I’m probably not looking in the right place. I will look at your link you posted later on.

Regardless I’m glad I asked, probably not worded 100% in my question, My apologies, I was interested in your hands on background. So I was asking particular questions.
You and I both have the similar driving experience, I also have a class one, Oversized, flat bed, reefer, and spent more times at scales, in trouble than I want to admit. I did a crazy thing in Virginia over 20 years ago with a load of mining equipment I was taking to tazwell, to get legal on my drives. I cannot believe it worked, and the cops watched me do it right in front of them.

Even setting up the hitch and axle weights on the local DOT scale, on my last two trucks. This spring, I didn’t unhook my TT and weight the pin weight and compare it to the hooked weight like I did with my old Ram. My notes from 2017 are in the dash of my GM. I was more concerned with the front trailer axle weight, it seems the GM sags a bit more than the Ram with the same trailer being used.

I agree, I guess we could call it a day, the regs I posted are what the DOT cops look at in the two provinces I normally frequent. In Canada they rule on the info I provided. You cannot go over the manufacture ratings regardless if there is a trailer attached or not.
In BC, they will do a blitz on travel trailers and with pickups hauling sleds or loads on decks. First they check your tires, second they will check your weight. FYI I know a person who got fined for not having cab lights on his pickup towing a snowmobile trailer that was 8ft 6” wide.
It’s easier to stay legal instead of bending the rules to make a opinion on them have merit.
In BC you need a special license hauling a trailer over 4600kg GVW, I believe it is.
Farm plated Vehicles are exempt from weight rules, very frustrating actually, My uncle hauls a combination of 30000lbs on a home made gooseneck with a 2001 Ram. Lol



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Hey man thanks for that, tone or expression gets lost in texting, and over forums, I was worried sure I was not wording things incorrectly giving a false impression.
I have never hauled a TT in the US and I’m not up on the individual state rules, I’m probably missing something in your presentation, and I’m going off of past experience. I have tried to find info backing up your claim, I’m probably not looking in the right place. I will look at your link you posted later on.

Regardless I’m glad I asked, probably not worded 100% in my question, My apologies, I was interested in your hands on background. So I was asking particular questions.
You and I both have the similar driving experience, I also have a class one, Oversized, flat bed, reefer, and spent more times at scales, in trouble than I want to admit. I did a crazy thing in Virginia over 20 years ago with a load of mining equipment I was taking to tazwell, to get legal on my drives. I cannot believe it worked, and the cops watched me do it right in front of them.

Even setting up the hitch and axle weights on the local DOT scale, on my last two trucks. This spring, I didn’t unhook my TT and weight the pin weight and compare it to the hooked weight like I did with my old Ram. My notes from 2017 are in the dash of my GM. I was more concerned with the front trailer axle weight, it seems the GM sags a bit more than the Ram with the same trailer being used.

I agree, I guess we could call it a day, the regs I posted are what the DOT cops look at in the two provinces I normally frequent. In Canada they rule on the info I provided. You cannot go over the manufacture ratings regardless if there is a trailer attached or not.
In BC, they will do a blitz on travel trailers and with pickups hauling sleds or loads on decks. First they check your tires, second they will check your weight. FYI I know a person who got fined for not having cab lights on his pickup towing a snowmobile trailer that was 8ft 6” wide.
It’s easier to stay legal instead of bending the rules to make a opinion on them have merit.
In BC you need a special license hauling a trailer over 4600kg GVW, I believe it is.
Farm plated Vehicles are exempt from weight rules, very frustrating actually, My uncle hauls a combination of 30000lbs on a home made gooseneck with a 2001 Ram. Lol



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No big deal...also, in some jurisdictions (such as PA, my home state) there is the concept of a "registered combination weight" (which I think is similar or identical to what you described for your F-450) that applies to commercial vehicles. The total gross weight of the vehicle and any trailer(s) cannot exceed this value, which is why you often see tandem axle tractors with "RGW 80,0000" printed on the side. Obviously the GVWR of that truck is way less than 80k (many of these trucks have a 12k steer axle and a 34k tandem rear end, so the actual GVWR is probably 46k) but their registered gross weight has to include anything they're pulling. But at least here it's for commercial vehicles only.
 
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