Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum banner

1181 - 1200 of 1344 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,660 Posts
No need to be a prophet. The industry insiders told us a year ago this would be coming, In fact, they called it to within a couple weeks. Go back and read post #20 and note the date.
Hold on just a gawl darn minute there! If I want to claim divine inspiration then claim it I will. Don't go raining on my parade just because others beat me to the punch by a few months.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
165 Posts
Hold on just a gawl darn minute there! If I want to claim divine inspiration then claim it I will. Don't go raining on my parade just because others beat me to the punch by a few months.
Ha Ha ok you got it. Carry on with your divine inspiration, my apologies mizterwizard.:neener
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,660 Posts
From what I've read, you have to send in either your current ECM or a new one, HP sends you a cracked one back, then you have to take it to a dealer after you install it and have Vehicle Anti-Theft System relearn by a dealer tool. Once you've spent the $2499 for the ECM and what ever it cost to have the Anti-theft Relearn done for a WAG price of $150. So at this Point you are at $2649 spent and now you have to find a tuner that uses the HP Tuners VCM Suite 4 and MPVI2 to tune your [email protected] the low low price of ??


No where does their literature state anything about Deleting the DPF, or DEF and exhaust replacement. By design, but there is no mention of the ability to disable EPA anything.

IMHO, I'm going to wait and see what flushes out from other vendors. Be nice to hear that EFI live is working on something but I haven't heard or read a thing on them for the L5P.

I'd hate to spend upwards of 5K and still have a def tank/stock exhaust and a tune that's comparable to the inline foolers that are out there.

Maybe Kory will figure something out with this HP tuners ECM that would prove to be a winner.



Mike
Let's suppose I came up with a power plant the size and weight of a typical carry-on suitcase and that it could put out 10 megawatts with no emissions other than electrical energy. It would never need fueling because it would work by capturing energy from the solar neutrino flux. Let's suppose it cost $49.95 to build and I could make 100 of them a day. What should I sell them for?

If you were in the market for such a device you might think I should sell it for less than $100 with free shipping and installation. Perhaps I could make a profit at that rate but I wouldn't do it. I'd ask $100,000 each and NASA would buy all I could produce. In fact the gummament might declare my power supply a matter of national security and claim them all for the military. They might even try to take control of the power supply away from me. And that's not to mention what the oil companies and OPEC would get up to.

I would use the $10,000,000 daily profit to increase production as quickly as I could. Within a year I would be making 10,000 a day. There would still be more demand than I could meet. In the secondary market they would be selling for several times the list price.

It would probably take at least 5 years to build enough capacity to meet demand. Every yacht owner, every large ship, every railroad, every OTR trucker, every large building owner, every utility company and every other large power user would want one or more of them. The only way a normal person could afford one would be if someone else came out with a competing device. Then I would have to lower my price to something more representative of what the power supply cost.

The solutions to the L5P currently at hand require the production or modification of hardware. That takes time and investment. Until supply matches demand there is no incentive to make the products any cheaper than is necessary to get demand to match supply. With previous tuning options it was a matter of buying the tuner and installing software.

The tuners have been in production for a while so there is no capacity limitation. Software is expensive for one copy but free for every succeeding copy. That lead to reasonably priced tuning options in the past. Until that sort of tuning becomes available for the L5P or some other source for hardware mods fills the demand, tuning will be expensive. Even if lots of mods become available they will be more expensive than software.

In a market where demand far outstrips supply, why would anyone sell for a reasonable profit? Now is the time when fortunes are to be made on L5P tuning. People do this for the money. It is time to get while the getting is good.

Patience is a virtue, just like it has always been.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
And add in the price of a turbo since Banks said the turbo is the choke point. Of course if just deleting is the main goal, then kudos! But still pricey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
True gipper... I guess if you think about it as more of a build then just a delete, by the time you do a turbo, delete, and tune, the cost will be pretty close to what it takes to make 6-700whp from an LML since you hafta swap in a CP3. And I would say that without a doubt that the L5P will be more durable in those higher hp builds. It's just the normal straight tune/delete that 95% of the guys want to do that the price is so high on. Like wizard said... a little more patience and it'll be cheaper and easier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
I have no knowledge about tuning or what is required beyond watching youtube videos of people writing tunes/maps. What is changed in a deleted tune, compared to a emissions tuned engine? I understand the fuel maps are changed, but what needs to be changed to allow to delete? Just more parameters in the computers, or completely delete programming.

There is a guy on youtube, Optimal welding, or something like that who does great videos about tuning his trucks, cummins engines but I am sure its pretty much the same ideas.

I understand engines, and everything going on, just not the programming side of it. Im an operator at a combine cycle plant, and understand logic, and our emissions systems, and the controls involved in all that, wondering/trying to learn how similar it all is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,597 Posts
Kory just posted this on Instagram. Sounds like it’s legit, just gonna have to get your checkbooks out to play.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,660 Posts
I have no knowledge about tuning or what is required beyond watching youtube videos of people writing tunes/maps. What is changed in a deleted tune, compared to a emissions tuned engine? I understand the fuel maps are changed, but what needs to be changed to allow to delete? Just more parameters in the computers, or completely delete programming.

There is a guy on youtube, Optimal welding, or something like that who does great videos about tuning his trucks, cummins engines but I am sure its pretty much the same ideas.

I understand engines, and everything going on, just not the programming side of it. Im an operator at a combine cycle plant, and understand logic, and our emissions systems, and the controls involved in all that, wondering/trying to learn how similar it all is.
In a world where there was nothing to worry about except power and efficiency an engine would be tuned with lots of injection before TDC and the injection would be calibrated to mix with the air as it passed the injector for maximum contact between fuel and oxygen. In the real world it doesn't work that way.

Early and high flow injection produces high temperatures that melt pistons and create oxides of nitrogen. There is also more soot produced. It may lead to harsh combustion as well which can be noisy and hard on parts.

Until the gummament got involved the main thing manufacturers worried about was keeping the mechanical parts together while getting lots of power, efficiency and durability. Diesels got their reputation from these characteristics. The last of the 2 valve Dodge Cummins engines were like this. Now, with EPA in the mix, it is necessary to reduce emissions and most customers want their engines to be silent as well.

To make the regulators happy and still keep diesels worth owning it was necessary to atomize the fuel more finely, inject at times and in amounts that optimized emissions over efficiency and treat what couldn't be burned properly before it came out the exhaust.

To accomplish the more complicated goals the manufacturers went to common rail systems with very high pressures. They use computers to control the injection timing and amount in a more complicated way. They use controlled turbochargers to match the air flow and exhaust back pressure to the needs of the law. They use EGR to reduce the temperature of the combustion gasses to reduce oxides of nitrogen. They use catalytic converters to oxidize unburnt fuel and to reduce oxides of nitrogen. They use filters to catch soot and a flame thrower in the exhaust to burn the soot off when necessary. They use Diesel Emission Fluid (DEF, also called urea) to aid the catalytic converter in reducing oxides of nitrogen.

There are three main goals in tuning and deleting.

The first goal is to optimize the engine's operation for power and efficiency more so than for emissions compliance. This isn't hard to do. Lots of people do it but there is a down side if it isn't done properly. A tune that maximizes power will likely destroy the engine, which has been designed to work at less than maximum pressures and temps. It will probably do damage to other parts of the drive train as well, particularly the transmission. Injecting more fuel than there is air to burn it causes the available oxygen to combine with the hydrogen in the fuel, which releases more energy than if it burned with carbon. As a result there is more power produced but the cost is wasted fuel that comes out as black smoke. When people roll coal they are throwing away a lot of fuel to gain more power.

A properly done tune for street use will not over stress the engine parts or other drive train parts while increasing economy and power. It will also burn cleanly because rolling coal is just asking to be regulated. It is matter of finess. Even staying within the limits of sanity there is a lot to be gained by tuning.

Properly done, this type of tuning is socially neutral and not likely to arouse anyone's ire as long as you don't try to get warranty coverage for anything afterward.

The second goal of tuning is to enable the engine to run without smog controls. The controls used on diesel engines are getting better but there seems to be a learning period every time a new control is implemented. EGR tends to put soot into the intake where it combines with oil vapors from the PCV system and makes a putty. This putty builds up on the walls of the intake manifold and can make some really interesting stalactites. Over time the passages in the intake can become reduced in size enough to seriously impede air flow. Eliminating either the PCV or EGR systems will stop this.

The DPF when it is new is fairly innocuous but over time it tends to clog up. Cleaning it out by dumping fuel into the exhaust where it can burn hot is expensive and wasteful but necessary if the DPF is to work.

The catalytic converter used in most diesel engines is pretty well developed. It has the advantage of decades of gas engine development so it works pretty with minimal adverse effects. Some people like to remove it on a just-because basis but those who keep it seem to confirm that it does little if any harm and probably some good.

DEF is the newest addition to the diesel emissions arsenal and it has had lots of problems. Perhaps the worst aspect is that when the DEF system has any kind of problem it tends to put the computer into limp mode, making it hard to ignore and often hard to get home. It looks just like what it is, an added on afterthought. Most people don't like DEF but if it was better done it wouldn't be a bad thing, other than just another thing to go bad and need service.

If any of these emissions controls is removed or disabled the computer will freak out. To get the computer to be happy it needs to be told to ignore the missing inputs.

The third goal of tuning is plain old simplification. Henry Ford is famous for having said that if it isn't on the car it can't break. By removing as many things as possible from the truck, reliability can be enhanced. This argument isn't very strong on a truck with every option in the book installed but it still makes sense to some people.

There is, of course, the legal and ethical question related to deleting and tuning. Any deleting is certainly illegal and most tuning is as well. Whether that matters to you or not is up to you.

One of the advantages of modern computer controlled engines is the ability to change the way they run simply by changing some numbers in a computer map. The map is a plan for how the engine should run. It works like this: the RPMs are XXX, the MAF is YYY, the throttle position is ZZZ so inject AAA fuel at BBB degrees using CCC pressure. Each of the variables is checked several times a second and the injection is adjusted accordingly. In this example the tuning map is 3 dimensional. In reality it is more like 10 dimensional. The dimensions include RPM, air flow, turbocharger vane position, air temperature, engine temperature, throttle position, altitude, the condition of several smog controls, exhaust temperature, trans temp, vehicle speed, transmission range and several others. It can get pretty complicated.

By changing the A,B and C parameters associated with the X, Y and Z data you can change the way the engine runs, the power it produces, how hot it gets, how much smog it makes, how loud it sounds and just about anything else you would like to modify.

Some of the things the computer does with the info it has aren't just looking up data in a table. Sometimes it's a calculation. For instance, it may calculate whether the EGR sensor reading is reasonable considering the commanded EGR valve opening and other engine parameters. When it does this calculation it comes up with a result and then compares that to a table. If the result agrees with the table then all is good but if it disagrees it will take steps. In order to keep the computer from taking steps you can change the parameters in the table so that no matter what the outcome of the calculation it will not set a code or do anything else.

This is the basics of how computer engine and emissions management works. It takes a lot of savvy to understand what is going on at any particular time and even more to know what to do about it. Someone who doesn't know what they are doing can really screw things up. If a messed up computer were the only consequence then it would be okay to just have at it but you can kill expensive parts with bad programming. Caution and moderation are important principles to follow when attempting anything like this on your own.

People who do this sort of thing and sell their products have to have a lot of experience if they want to stay in business for long. It is a really good idea to research whom you are thinking about before buying a tune for your truck. You can do something really good or bad to your truck depending on who's tune you use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,660 Posts
Sounds like Kory is looking to control his development costs by using customer ECMs as test beds. In exchange the customer gets to be first in line and probably doesn't have to pay for the tuning.

Still not the software only solution I have predicted but a big start on the market. Perhaps it will always be necessary to physically modify the ECM but I say NO. Verification of prophetdom to follow.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
165 Posts
From Calibrated Power

You're receiving this because you're interested in L5P tuning. We know you have been waiting for details and are doing our best to keep you in the loop with factual information.

The L5P Duramax ECM can be unlocked and tuned
First your ECM unlock needs to be performed by HP Tuners ($2,499)
You will need to send in a stock ECM and VIN (we intended to make a limited amount of cores available) and they will send back an unlocked one
The unlocked ECM is not tuned, it will have a stock file on it
That unlocked ECM will have to be married to your truck using a combination of HPT software and GM software. VATS (Vehicle Anti-Theft Security), injector flow rates and crank position relearn all need to be completed before your truck will run properly on the unlocked ECM
You will need to have HP Tuners hardware/software to tune your L5P
VCM Suite 4 (Included)
MPVI2 ($299)
10 HP Tuners Credits for the L5P ECM ($49.99 each, $499.90 total)
TCM support requires a similar unlock at this point along with more credits to tune
Calibrated Power Solutions does not have control over these costs
Our initial tuning brought the stock L5P from 409 RWHP to 502 RWHP
We will continue to develop our tunes and final results may vary from our initial testing
Once we are confident that our tunes are the best on the market, we will offer custom tuning through our Authorized Dealers
Pricing for the tunes will follow as we continue to develop and refine our calibrations
As more details become available we will make sure to keep you in the loop. While we understand there is a huge demand for this platform. We also know you want it done right. It takes time and energy to properly develop the infrastructure necessary to properly refine our tuning and support our customers through this process.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,660 Posts
While we understand there is a huge demand for this platform. We also know you want it done right. It takes time and energy to properly develop the infrastructure necessary to properly refine our tuning and support our customers through this process.
And there is the key to a good tune. I'd be pretty leery of someone who came out with a tune the day after the crack was announced. Again, patience is the key. Banks took some time to develop his derringer for the L5P. Now that software tuning is possible it will also take time to get it right.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Thank you. I would love to get a look at Maps and see what is involved. I am not going to do it to my truck, just like to learn new things and have ability to talk about it with a little bit of knowledge on the subject.

Once warranty is up, all bets are off though. But Ill pay the proper person. lol
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
165 Posts
Kory Willis

Emissions present L5P day 1!

Stock was 386/818.
Beta Tune v1 526/1068

We still have air and plenty of fuel left. We will be 550+hp emissions present with I expect a mid 15AFR. Deleted - I expect 570+hp. We will post results tomorrow along with video as we continue our first phase of R&D!

We were also able to flash in and get around the Immobilizer data that required the customer to go to the dealer when getting their new ECU. This means get the ECU in the mail - and install it in the truck.. then flash the tune in! Woohoo! Great day 1!

#PPEI #PPEITUNING #Duramax #L5P #HPTuners
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,042 Posts
One day ....and already getting easier .....Jes saying

Said way back in this thread .... When demand is high enough ...it will be broken.....

So much for the truck communicates to much this and that .....that it can never be tuned....

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
135 Posts
When one sends in their ECU to have it "unlocked" what exactly is done to "unlock" it and how reliable is the unlocking? Is it software or hardware or both?
 
1181 - 1200 of 1344 Posts
Top