I see no difference between modifying software and modifying hardware. We have been doing all sorts of things to hardware for decades and it is actually a legally protected right.

The thing about software is that many software companies don't sell it to you. They license it with lots of restrictions on the license. As far as I know, there is no such thing on vehicle software. I haven't seen an EULA for a new truck for instance. Maybe it is there in the paperwork that the dealer puts in front of you that nobody reads but I haven't seen it.

The thing is, though, an entirely new ECM or an inline data converter doesn't equal modifying the base code. The first has its own code and the second has little to do with code at all.

No we don't own the code itself but unless there is a copyright or EULA in place I don't know how it would be a problem modifying it or working around it. A very longstanding president of manufacturers not protecting their copyrights would be pretty hard to overcome in court.

This is all really academic in the first place. If you do anything to the code without EPA approval it is illegal. Who gets EPA approval for the tweaks they do on their own tunes? Intellectual property rights are hardly going to stop anyone who would otherwise tune. I think the last thing the manufacturers want is to sue their customers for property rights violations for tuning their trucks. It could happen but it isn't likely.

 

Not too long ago I tuned vehicles for a living. Had a shop, dyno, traveled around the nation. We used LS1Edit, HPTuners, SCT had Advantage, Diablo had Chipmaster Revolution, and Sniper had this archaic looking program called Commando. Back then the forums were hyperactive with people writing opinions as if they were the scribe of god himself. There were some private tuner forums where members had threads dedicated to how false they were. People were just coming up with nonsense.

The Fords first started with chips that could access only one bank of memory. For what they were, they worked fine. Then came four bank chips and this is where the forum rumors went crazy. Four bank chips never made anymore power, they had been able to access some functions that could be adjusted individually, like mass air flow. Fuel tables where you could use an actual lambda. But everyone said these chips were making more power even though these chips had basically nothing to do with WOT. I could get into the flash counter conspiracy theory. I could get into the throttle angle speculation when drive by wire came out. And it was all a bunch of stuff that had some remote truth to it originally that was bastardized and fueled by the forums which ended up being completely false.

I haven't followed it closely but back when the new M4 had come out there was a ton of naysayers, and even one individual who seemed to have particular knowledge of the subject. Then some company in Europe lifted the backdoor off one of the Bosch chips and that was over.

So my two questions are:

1) Has any of this even been verified? This is a lot of thread, and so far all I can see as far as a source is some GM dealership or IT department.

2) To me it's hard to believe that a manufacturer that can't even figure out how to keep a phantom trouble code off, has somehow leaped and instituted this unbreakable computer in one model year.

People always forget, there's always a smarter person, and even no so smart people that resort to smarter methods. A lot of people outside of GM have their fingerprints on this stuff.

 

Word

 

Last week, I tasked one of my Security Engineers talented in writing google search queries, with digging me up some additional hard information. He emailed me a link this afternoon and I checked it with my GM source to verify. The information is accurate.

From the forum admin at EFILive....posted back in August:

https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?27849-2018-updated-GM-security-keeps-rolling-out

From the link:

Hi All,

Unfortunately there is some more bad news for the GM aftermarket tuning industry, it appears a new ECM has arrived on some of the petrol/gas engines with the same security as the 2017+ E41 (L5P) Duramax ECM.

The 2018 Malibu using the 1.5L Direct Injection engine is using a new ECM referred to as the E88. Tuning will not be possible with this ECM as it contains high levels of security including SHA-256 signatures on all calibration segments with no way to bypass them and no way to get in to the CPU using BDM/JTAG access.

The CPU's used also have built in Crypto modules too. So my suspicion is GM are doing this in preparation for the 'Over the Air' updates they said will come in 2020 rather than to specifically keep tuners out, obviously the current security is not good enough once a vehicle is 'on-line' so this is the solution, really tighten it up.

Given GM have typically used ECM's for a 5 to 6 year cycle it probably means we will start to see replacements for the E92, E80, E39 etc that employ this new security too

The security used and what can (or can't) be done about has already been discussed in depth here when the E41 came out.
https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?27554-2017-Duramax

And some further reading:
https://patentimages.storage.googlea.../US8930710.pdf

Cheers,
Ross

Guys I know it seems hard to believe in this day and age of anything being possible, but, when I saw GM had implemented interleaved SHA-256 in the on-board systems on this truck, I didn't spend another minute wondering about tuning options.....because there are none. Interleaved means each code segment in the ECM and TCM has a different SHA-256 hash in a unique combination.

I know this thread is getting long and difficult to scroll through for the important points. I am happy to keep an eye on it and reply as necessary, but, I don't want to sound lecturing or talk down to anyone. Here is the link for the GM patent document outlining the security methodology used.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US8930710.pdf

 

Have you considered that people are already working on standalone ecms for the L5P? We don’t have to use what gm provides. Granted, it may be a while but it’s going to happen (tuning). I’m not trying or wanting to argue but to say something will never happen is absurd.

 

I'm not trying to argue either. I have no ulterior motives other than I bought a new 2017 Duramax, and, I am a Senior IT Design Engineer with years of expertise in the types of security measures GM is using on these vehicles, and merely want to discuss the facts of what is possible and not, and help non-technical people gain an understanding of how this technology works. No emotion or ego......just facts.

This has got my interest professionally because AFAIK, other than Tesla, GM is the first major vehicle OEM to start encrypting and locking down vehicle systems. I would recommend going back and reading through this thread to get a sense of what has been discussed.

Based on the information I posted earlier, it appears GM is beginning to lock down on-board systems in 2017-newer vehicles in preparation for OTA software update capabilities coming in the 2020 model year. The tuning community is likely a side casualty of this, not the intended target. GM chose SHA-256 as the authentication hash to use on their ECM software going forward.....including the E41 in the L5P trucks. From a security perspective, this is a wise move because SHA-256 is un-hackable and unbreakable.......by the NSA or anyone else.....period. The world wide Bitcoin currency uses blockchain based on SHA-256 authentication for the same reason......it is not going to be broken......ever.....and you can literally take that to the bank.

As an example, the current hash rate (as of Oct 2017) of the entire worldwide Bitcoin network is currently 12,000,000 th/s (trillions of hashes per second). If the worldwide bitcoin network increased in power by a trillion trillion trillion times faster than the current network, brute-forcing a single 2*255 (two to the 255'th power) SHA-256 hash would still take 51,830,540,828,238,958,521,154 years. The Sun is expected to burn out in about 5,000,000,000 years.

Nothing absurd about it, its simple math, and again, breaking properly implemented SHA-256 is not going to happen by the NSA with unlimited resources, much less an aftermarket tuning company. The link I posted earlier is the forum mod at EFILive.....they discussed this months before I made my first post here.....no tuning or deletes coming (except inline boxes) for these trucks or the other vehicles using the listed ECM's. It's just that simple.

Yes, standalone ECM's have already been discussed several times. These trucks are canbus network vehicles using proprietary GM hardware, software, and communication protocols. Each module is encoded with the VIN# of the vehicle on which it was installed. NOTHING on the truck works without the factory ECM....,.electronic throttle, transmission control module, instrument cluster, MyLink, climate controls, ABS, power accessories....nothing. The GM body control module is not going to communicate with an aftermarket ECM. So yes, you do have to use what GM provides if you want to keep a stock truck.

If you want to rip out the dash and rewire the truck for an aftermarket ECM, custom gauges, radio, climate, brakes, etc......that is certainly possible for race/track trucks, but, for your average street truck owner making payments and wanting to sell or trade it later......nobody is removing the factory ECM and swapping for an aftermarket unit.....it just doesn't work that way.

 

These trucks are canbus network vehicles using proprietary GM hardware, software, and communication protocols. Each module is encoded with the VIN# of the vehicle on which it was installed. NOTHING on the truck works without the factory ECM....,.electronic throttle, transmission control module, instrument cluster, MyLink, climate controls, ABS, power accessories....nothing. The GM body control module is not going to communicate with an aftermarket ECM. So yes, you do have to use what GM provides if you want to keep a stock truck.

I did some sniffing on the CAN data at the OBD port and there is a ton of activity, my logs are huge. None of the HVAC/Audio gets there either as it's on the MOST optical bus. Haven't figured out more than a couple of the CANid's that I see.

None of this helps with engine parameter alteration though.

 

The more I think about the implications of this, the more I realize that we as consumers absolutely have a right to access, and change things. Say an injector goes bad, and we opt to buy one from the aftermarket... To properly compensate for the offset change, we need access to the programming.

I certainly did not sign an agreement to purchase replacement parts, and lifetime service from GM.

 

Advanced technology always involves a trade-off......sometimes that is not realized until too late.....something one learn's early-on working in the technology industry.

 

As turbowizard states the new ECM's are so integrated with the rest of the modules that altering one is damn near impossible. We've been trying to get a blank ECM programmed and unlike prior ECM's they won't work without the rest of their component modules. We can talk to it but not get it to take a VIN. I'm not interested in tuning my L5P but we do various engine swaps in cars and the E92 is an issue. For our purposes a non-OE ECM would be fine. Nothing out there yet for a dual cam, twin turbo, DI engine though. Not even close enough to use as a dev base.

 

So, not being able to tune these new 445hp trucks probably isn't that big of a deal to 90% of the owners at this point...

Now, 10 years from now with high miles and long past warranty coverage the emissions system starts crapping out. Big money to fix. The owners will not even have the option of deleting some of the very expensive components that need to be replaced. I see plenty of older LML's that are tuned/deleted after a few years of depreciation and emissions warranty has expired.

 

I don't think this is emotional reasoning. None of us have anything to gain or lose from posting here. Just simple discussion. Again, I appreciate your ability to answer technical questions.

What would you say or do if/when tuning becomes available? Honest question.

 

What would you say or do if/when tuning becomes available? Honest question.

He will go back to developing his "foot long" oil filter, which is what he should have been doing concurrently. >

 

From Sema today.

 

I like.....what causes MIL issues with the inline boxes?

 

Little blurry, but I can make out 500 some bucks, and 98 horse bump... not bad... 200 ft lbs... wonder how long it'll work before it throws a code? I'm coming up on 100k miles, might have to give it a whirl...


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Little blurry, but I can make out 500 some bucks, and 98 horse bump... not bad... 200 ft lbs... wonder how long it'll work before it throws a code? I'm coming up on 100k miles, might have to give it a whirl...

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well he's got my L5P for the next 2 and a half months to figure some of that out so I wouldn't worry too much about it. He has an amazing team of people there working their asses off on this right now.

 

I’m sure at least a few have explored the idea already, but I started barking up the GM tree today. I was a GM tech almost two decades ago, and know all too well the kind of ish that goes on. I abstain from dealership service whenever possible. More importantly, it is just flat out wrong to hold people mercy to what a dealership charges. Why do I have to pay their billed labour rates, parts costs, etc.

I have never had a desire to sue, but this is a rip if ever there was one

 

The early model AFE Scorcher Modules threw a P20EE code after a while which is DPF related. They sent me out an updated module which seems to be fixed. No codes and works well. I have no idea what they changed.

 

Tangentially related to this thread is the growing "right to repair movement" which may not make practical modification possible but may make it easier for owners and independent repair shops to have access to needed information and materials: https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tec...een-tech/conservation/why-we-must-fight-for-the-right-to-repair-our-electronics

 

I totally understand where you are going with this. That's not what I'm asking. I may not be a computer nerd(no offense), but you're not dealing with a monkey either. These trucks do not have the capability of steering themselves. I'm asking if you know, for fact, that these trucks, that we have right now, have this sort of lockdown? Your first post suggested that someone told you this. Don't take this post as a slam to you in any way. Or me trying to be smart. I know that there are individuals that have made significant progress on these trucks. They are not hackjob backyard tuners. I truthfully don't think GM is dumb enough to do this. Money drives what they do, and they're gonna lose tons of it if it becomes common knowledge that these in fact are un-tunable. People will buy other brands. I don't believe they are naive enough to not know that. Now a Bolt? I can see how they would lock down a Bolt. It has the capability to be autonomous. If they were going to being implementing this technology, it doesn't seem like the format to start with. They still have mechanical inputs. If someone could hack the throttle, you could still brake, throw it in park, set the parking brake, etc. In a Bolt, none of that. Get what I'm saying?

 

No offense taken and likewise. Yes, I know for a fact that L5P trucks, right now, have these security capabilities....and more. Technically, they are a black hole because nothing is coming out unless GM wants it to. I have seen detailed information with my own eyes, but I have to be careful about disclosure, hope you can understand that.

The other points I am trying to convey are the business aspects of this, not what is technically possible or not possible. You may not think this is important....but it is....possibly the most important aspect of all. As I said several pages back, whatever $$$ GM loses in sales because of the tuner community......is mouse-nuts compared to their potential liability if these vehicles are not locked down.

A guy on my team has a huge movie library......thousands of movies. He has been downloading pirated movie torrents since Napster was on the internet. He can play those movies in his own home, in his vehicles, on his devices, or share them with trusted friends and family on his server.....whatever he wants to do.....PRIVATELY. No problems at all........until he burns those movies to Blu-Ray discs and tries to sell them PUBLICLY in a booth at the local flea market. Copyright infringement, including infringement for no personal gain, is a federal crime and trying to sell those movies would result in a handcuffed quick ride to the local FBI field office for further "discussion".

When it comes to exploiting digital technology, what you can do privately, and what you can do publicly are two VERY different things.

In the extremely unlikely event the L5P ECM was successfully hacked, tuned, and/or deleted.......and the how-to of that hack was published on the internet free for all to use PRIVATELY on their own vehicles.....well sir the cat's out of the bag, and it's Miller time. :drink

But who would do that? Who would put all of the work into R&D only to give it away for free? The answer is no one. Has any tuning company ever given their technical art away for free before?.......the answer is no.

GM's system on these 2017-later vehicles was specifically designed to take advantage of federal DMCA protections. They have filed multiple patents where this is clearly spelled out. The reason EFILive is not wasting any time on the L5P is because even if they could hack the E41 ECM, they know they could never sell tuning or other mods PUBLICLY as a product for the same reason the guy on my team can't sell his pirated movies.....they are protected by copyright.

My response here is a bit tounge-in-cheek because anyone who gets around SHA-256 has $billions waiting on them hacking Bitcoin, bank wire transfers, and stock market trades.....they would not be wasting time on Chevy trucks.

Here are a couple of links for additional info.

https://www.wired.com/2016/01/gm-asks-friendly-hackers-to-report-its-cars-security-flaws/

https://hackerone.com/gm

 

Security

New here and 1st post. I am considering the purchase of a new LP5 Silverado. Given the content of this thread I feel my post here is relevant. Now all that has been discussed here I basically understand but the reality and complexity of it is way beyond me. So as input I have nothing. However what I want to know is "How secure is the vehicle from theft and tampering?"

If the ECU is locked down and can't be altered or over-ridden then can the truck be stolen, (short of been lifted by air or flat-bedded away. Also in the event that it is removed without my permission, what can the thieves do to make that now stolen vehicle operational? I am assuming from what I have read or interpreted that the VIN is the key to all of the electronics. So if a would be thief has the VIN wouldn't his or hers job be easy?

 

New here and 1st post. I am considering the purchase of a new LP5 Silverado. Given the content of this thread I feel my post here is relevant. Now all that has been discussed here I basically understand but the reality and complexity of it is way beyond me. So as input I have nothing. However what I want to know is "How secure is the vehicle from theft and tampering?"

If the ECU is locked down and can't be altered or over-ridden then can the truck be stolen, (short of been lifted by air or flat-bedded away. Also in the event that it is removed without my permission, what can the thieves do to make that now stolen vehicle operational? I am assuming from what I have read or interpreted that the VIN is the key to all of the electronics. So if a would be thief has the VIN wouldn't his or hers job be easy?

I do not know what happens on L5P trucks if On-Star is disabled, or the antenna removed, but On-Star can disable a stolen vehicle in less than 5 minutes. I do know that odometer fraud on these trucks is impossible because you can't program or swap IC's without an authorized dealer. Going forward vehicle theft will be a thing of the past similar to cell phone theft. After 2020 model year, once the VIN# of a vehicle is marked stolen, it will essentially be useless.

The #3 and #4 top stolen vehicles in the US?.....Chevy and Ford trucks.

 

Coming soon!

Duramax Tuner Spade | L5P Tuner

 

If it's on the internet, it must be true!! doh:

HackMaster L5P Tuning

 

Interesting!


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Did you just create that website? :stickpoke


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Did you just create that website? :stickpoke

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Yes.....in the time it took to drink a cup of coffee.

I think this might be a new side business because I can certainly make claims of "Coming Soon" as well as anyone else + I really like how "HackMaster" rolls off the tounge. >

 

Well guys, I can see this is turning into a pissing match, so after this I'll shut up. The sales numbers for full size trucks were down for GM in 2016,and it shows that in the same article you cited. Its shows GM down 3% for the year over year, with chevy and gmc combined about 24k units behind ford. The numbers in your chart included the colorado. I have the numbers for HD trucks, but I was told I can't use them, but they aren't good. You guys need to know, I'm not a coal roller. That's not what this is about. As far as the warranty goes, it's not clear. The chevy page says just what was cited on this page, however, read further down the page and it clearly says 5yr/50k. I've seen it firsthand, and they usually don't cover it. I'm not on here to make anyone think highly of me, or to make someone feel worse about themselves. I try not to type anything I wouldn't say in person. If you think I'm a naive idiot, fine. I will admit to not being a computer expert, but maybe not a total novice. Have fun making fun of me, I'm out

 

I believe your right Maxxer442 GM did have a hand in the LML tuning no one cracked anything and when enough of these L5P's come off warranty and independent shops start doing repairs we will get our tunes. Thanks for your insightful comments and contributing to the thread, were not all d-bags around here.
Cheers!

 

Guys no intent to create a pissing contest here.....let's keep this dialog running.....but wishful thinking creates nothing but FUD. My job professionally it to eliminate technology FUD and replace it with fact. Doing the same here in a recreational pursuit doesn't make me or anyone else who takes red pills a douchebag.

I worked at GM for three years, still know many high-level people there, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that any notion GM corporate had a hand in cracking their own ECM's for illegal purposes is rumor and nonsense....warranty or not. Automakers spend $billions in R&D. If anyone at GM was ever caught helping the aftermarket defeat security measures to disable emissions equipment or provide access to controller software, they would be terminated immediately, and possibly prosecuted for intellectual property theft. Cracking controller modules not only allows access to the aftermarket, but to competitors as well.

Assuming that some "tricky" dude in the aftermarket is going to beat GM again because he beat GM in the past is wishful thinking. This new system is vastly different, and I have explained and posted pages of information outlining how it works, the math behind it, and the various technical, business, security, and legal reasons for GM doing this.

Again fellas, I can appreciate that a lot of this is hard to digest, but, SHA-256 protected ECM software coupled with a corporate multi-factor security framework to manage it, is the end.....especially once OTA features begin to roll out. GM got serious. It's as simple as that.

 

5/50K is the required Federal emissions warranty and no manufacturer can go below that minimum so that has to be stated so that EVERYTHING within the emissions system is covered for that time. Note that this is a different requirement with different coverage periods than those vehicles equipped with spark ignition engines. GM is covering most of the emissions system for a longer period of time under the Duramax engine warranty including the really expensive stuff like the DPF but I am sure they can and will refuse coverage on some minor parts so you might find a hose connecting the DEF tank to the DEF injector might be excluded after 50K.

You will see similar wording applying to GM car warranties where the federal 2 year/24K performance warranty and 8 year/80K major component emissions warranty coverage applies. A 3 year old GM car with 30K miles that fails an emissions test due to defect would still be covered under the GM 3/36K bumper to bumper warranty which provides better coverage, in this case, than the required federal minimum.

 

Well, the word around the Sema show was that we should see some very good options come to market around Christmas time. So I guess time will tell. I just put mine away for the winter and will be running the snot out of my tuned LBZ so I'm not in a big hurry myself.

 

Truth is, nobody knows. Only time will tell.

Lots of people are promising things but until they actually deliver a product and someone gets it to work acceptably on their truck it is all just hype.

The future is filled with doubt, uncertainty and hope. I hope for good things.

 

Folks should probably just realize that there are people hear that see the world through a different lens and are pretty smart as well. I know I drop down some tough love but i do so trying to bring up the level of knowledge and understanding and dispatch with the rumors and bull.

This ECM hacking thing is going to go the way of the dinosaur. It is inevitable. You can adapt\adopt or be pissed off. With these in-line tuners with DPF still in place that sounds like a train wreck . So do you do a regen every 100 miles after making that soot from romping on it??

Food for thought

If your so in love with tuned diesels then go buy a junk yard one. Fix it up and put a L5P crate motor in it. Then I suspect you will be happy. The old LBZ sounds like a good plan as well.

If you want to go fast I honestly suggest going to a gasser . If you understand the laws of thermodynamics then diesel is a slow burning fuel. What this means is that there are very specific laws which govern how a fuel burns based on pressure and temperature and the energy that it produced in that process. Therefore diesel as a slow burning fuel is meant to be put in a slower rotating engine which of course means it will eventually struggle to reach a good HP. Rudolf Diesel came up with the diesel back in the late 1800's before there was barely engines at all via understanding the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Then it is up to engineers to try to build an engine that will do it's best to mimic those laws, e.g. converting chemical energy to mechanical energy. Of course due to friction that can't be perfectly achieved. It just so happens though that the diesel can produce a lot of torque at a pretty good efficiency making it wonderfully suitable for a variety of applications. Going fast isn't one of them!! So you can screw around with diesels all you want but your not going to get too far as it concerns HP and speed, just not going to happen efficiently or smartly , ($$$$$) . Gale Banks could tell you that and well he just so happens to want to see how far he can push it as I guess that is his gig but there are better ways to spend money if you want to go fast. Give me that Z06 motor in a 2500HD, work that and I'll put it up against anything Gale Banks has any day. He might even make the HP but getting to peak HP still isn't easy with a slow burning fuel and that is where he looses the drag race. That Z06 will wind up in a second. Pulling heavy sleds well you take the instant torque of a diesel and a gasser would suck at that trying to get to it's very late peak torque number.

A good way to look at it is by thinking of a Top Fuel Dragster. Those folks knew they couldn't get to where they wanted to go 6,5, 4, 3 second 1/4 mile using say 120 Octane gas as we know it. Slow burning diesel was going in the opposite direction, therefore they went to a new fuel that could give them much more energy. It is just that simple and trying to beat the laws of physics only gets more and more expensive for less and less return.

 

A good way to look at it is by thinking of a Top Fuel Dragster. Those folks knew they couldn't get to where they wanted to go 6,5, 4, 3 second 1/4 mile using say 120 Octane gas as we know it. Slow burning diesel was going in the opposite direction, therefore they went to a new fuel that could give them much more energy. It is just that simple and trying to beat the laws of physics only gets more and more expensive for less and less return.

Top Dragster Blown Nitrous Diesel, you mean like one of these...

 

Wagler, Farm Trucks new toy is a 3500 Hp Duramax. Hell Yes, its a diesel.

https://www.facebook.com/WaglerCompetitionProducts/videos/1688603387851791/

 

As for the financials, ALL of the auto manufacturers are seeing large and accelerating sales declines. The Fed's "easy money" low interest rate policy has run its course and the near $1 Trillion bubble in subprime auto loans is nearing its end. Don't give a damn what the stock price is, it's central bank supported vaporware. As to the truck itself, I'm in the camp that although diehard GM, will look at other brands due to the locked down ECM. Current ride is a 2.8L Duramax Colorado. I don't plan on keeping it forever (too many kids, and it's too small) but I'm Military, single income and have the afformentioned too many kids, so cash is a bit to tight to get back into a full size at the moment. Because it's under warranty and I don't plan on keeping it forever, its stock. Still have the delete tune on my laptop if plans change and the need arises. Bottom line, if I can't tune it, I may still buy it, because I really love the GM trucks, but damn sure wouldn't hold onto it past the warranty. As F***ing stupid as all the engine destructive anti environmental EPA equipment and it's as low as every 100 mile regens are, it still gets 30MPG and it's GM's dime if it breaks. As for the L5P I know it won't be hacked. SHA-256 secures the US nuclear codes and financials like bitcoin after all, just holding out hope someone finds the Mexican back door or ECM development mode. Otherwise I may have to find a clean '15-'16 lml and take real good care of it for a while. Lastly on the more philosophical, we're way overdue for some revolutionaries. If we all bend over and take the massive government overreach, big brother like surveillance and control and financial manipulation, we will in fact wake up to find ourselves enslaved on the very land our forefathers conquered, and we don't have the right to do that to our children. If we don't push back, don't expect it to get better.